Not So Small
Running a small business is anything but small. In each episode our host, Sam Bauman, asks small business owners about their challenges, triumphs, and the passion that keeps them going. Through this, Not So Small seeks to spotlight and strengthen the small businesses that are dedicated to their community and care about more than the bottom line.
Not So Small
The Qi House: Cary Hakam
In this episode of Not So Small, host Sam Bauman sits down with Cary Hakam, licensed acupuncturist and owner of The Qi House in South Minneapolis. Cary shares his remarkable journey from studying yoga in Singapore to becoming a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner over 22 years ago.
The conversation explores Cary's unique path, including how he dreamed about his mentors three years before meeting them. He discusses the challenges of starting a healing arts center, the importance of following your heart in business, and how his practice evolved during major community events like the George Floyd protests and COVID.
Cary emphasizes the balance between running a business and maintaining authenticity and trusting your heart. The episode offers valuable insights for aspiring entrepreneurs about staying true to your values and building a business that nurtures both the community and the practitioner.
Guest Info
- Business: The Qi House
- Guest: Cary Hakam (he/him)
- Links: Website
Community Shoutout
Host & Show Info
- Host Name: Sam Bauman (she/her)
- About the Host: Sam is the President of Mellowlark Labs, a Twin Cities-based small business consulting agency. She has a masters degree in counseling psychology, a field she worked in for several years before applying her skills in business, and is certified in Organization Development.
Podcast Website
Sound Editing By: Adam Rondeau
Podcast Art By: Andy Bauman (website)
Welcome back to not so Small, the. Podcast where we ask small businesses the big questions. I'm your host, Sam Bauman, and this week I sat down with Cary Hakam, owner of The Qi House. The Qi House is a healing arts center in South Minneapolis that provides services in acupuncture, herbal medicine, massage therapy, craniosacral therapy, and a variety of other disciplines. Car Cary has over 20 years of experience in acupuncture and Chinese medicine, and his journey to this career makes for a great story. Keep listening to hear how Cary paid for some of his first lessons in Chinese medicine with games of ping pong and his words of wisdom on always. Following your heart in business and in life. So, first of all, thank you so much for letting us come here and interrupt your day to talk about your business. I'm really excited. I mean, I've gotten to get acupuncture from you years ago. It's been at this point, but I really don't know much about your business and kind of how it came to be. So I'd love if you could just start by introducing yourself and kind of telling me about where we are and what this place is for you.
Cary Hakam:Okay. Oh, this is The Qi House. My name's Carrie Hickam. And I've been doing acupuncture a few officially licensed for 22 years now. And we, my wife and I, Christina, bought this building in 2013 and sat on it for a couple years because we didn't have any money to build it out. And it was right after that first financial crisis. Getting loans was possible without all these high fees. And so once we learned we could hawk our house and max out a credit card. So then we set it up and we finally moved in. I started doing my practice out of here in 2015 and been here for 10. This is our 10th year.
Sam Bauman:Wow.
Cary Hakam:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:And so what is The Qi House. What do you do here?
Cary Hakam:Well, we call it the Healing Arts Center. Most of it is traditional Chinese medicine because there are three now four practitioners who do acupuncture out of here. And. But we also have other healing modalities. We've had massage therapists, someone who just left, so probably going to fill that up pretty soon. And we also have a cranial sacral and Nikki also does nutrition. We also have energy work and physical therapist also does a little bit of that.
Sam Bauman:A lot of different things.
Cary Hakam:Yeah. And some of those are very part time. The acupuncture and the Chinese herbs are the main force here. But everybody here is like, well, first of all their own. Their own business. We don't. I don't have employees and didn't want to. Don't want to. And. But everybody's really good. Fit, really good. They have their own business. They'll put a good energy and it sort of. They carry on The Qi House energy.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:Which is very safe place. We do a lot of work with community and people in need also. And everybody has their own sort of niche in that Chinese medicine.
Sam Bauman:That's very cool. So when you decided to start the Qi House, was it the first business that you. Is this the first business that you've owned or when you were working elsewhere, did you also own that place?
Cary Hakam:I never owned a place, but I had my own business. So I would rent spaces and then. But I had my own.
Sam Bauman:Your own clients?
Cary Hakam:My own clients and my own. Yeah, I never worked under anybody.
Sam Bauman:Yeah. So in deciding to start The Qi House, what was the problem that you were looking to solve by creating this business and the space for practitioners to gather a few.
Cary Hakam:I mean, one of them is just the, like the steadiness of having your own place. I worked and rented a couple places that those places were not guaranteed to stay and a couple of them folded and so I'd have to find another place to work out of. So. And were. Christina's also very savvy, and one of her good friends in New York had rented a house, rented an apartment, bought an apartment, living there with a family and then babies sleeping in the bathtub. And then they. They rented another one. They sailed up until they got a place so they could rent and make money off it. And so we figured we needed. If were going to buy our next house, we need to have a place that we can rent or we could rent out our business out of. And so we found this building that had a apartment on top. It was built a hundred. Yeah, 110 years ago. And it always been a corner store, like a grocery store originally, and an apartment upstairs. And so we did that. And when we first got it, we still had a house across the highway in Kingfield. And my son was still in high school, but once he graduated, we sold out and then paid off all our expenses here.
Sam Bauman:And now you live here?
Cary Hakam:We live upstairs. Yeah. So we downsized quite a bit, but it was great to be able to like, get out of. From two mortgages and.
Sam Bauman:And no commute.
Cary Hakam:No commute. Which means I don't have an excuse when I'm late.
Sam Bauman:Well, you're your own boss too, so you have only Yourself to answer to.
Cary Hakam:Right. Or my patients. They're waiting downstairs for me sometimes.
Sam Bauman:You mentioned the ways that you contribute to the community here at Qi House. Can you talk a little bit more about that and maybe what is that purpose that you're serving for the community?
Cary Hakam:Well, it really came to a head because we're just a few blocks from George Floyd Square, and during the protest and then the crazy insurrection that was happening here, we set up little tents down by George Floyd, and we give free acupuncture to all the peacekeepers and anybody in need. We did that a few times a week at George Ford Square until it got a little bit crazy. There were some people who were on drugs and was just not safe for patients who were being needled. And so we ended up moving that back into our garden so space, and we'd hold a couple clinics a week for many months until the winter, and we couldn't do that anymore. And I think by that time we started opening up during COVID we couldn't open up our business, and we didn't know the just how deadly or contagious the virus was. And so. And since we're different businesses, people have reached out to different and who they connect with. I think Nikki has been connecting with a lot of bipoc population of Minnesota, Minneapolis, and I give very reasonable pay as you can rates and also have some herbs that people have donated, so I can give those out too. So. And I think just being a corner store, the neighborhood just, you know, people find us by just walking down and like, never, you know, people walk in and like, what is this place? And so that's how I. The neighborhoods would really come along, you know, over the years.
Sam Bauman:Yeah, you started with a very intentional community outreach plan during the George Floyd protests and during COVID And then it sounds like you really kind of gained a reputation in the community for being a safe place for people to come, you know, either if they are from marginalized communities or don't have the resources to pay for services at full rates. And it seems like that's been an important part of, you know, your business model and the way that you exist in the community.
Cary Hakam:Yeah, and I've had good mentors who've sort of showed me that way. For example, when Dr. Ho was treating everybody, no matter what they could and honoring, she was working for somebody else. She was an employee, but would do whatever she could to help people in need. So it was good mentoring.
Sam Bauman:Yeah, that's wonderful. So you've been in business for 10 years now, have you hit rocky spots, points in your business where things have felt challenging either financially or otherwise.
Cary Hakam:Well, 10 years here at The Qi House, but 20 years in total. So the Rocky stuff was happening before. And just the time of purchasing the building and being financially strapped for a couple years, that was the toughest. And I've learned it comes in waves. You know, people, you know, suddenly you have, when it rains, it pours and sometimes it's a drought and. But you know, I've learned just to like trust that this is for a reason. I feel this is my calling. I mean, I know it's my calling. I actually dreamt about this before I met my teachers. I dreamt about my teachers three years before I met them.
Sam Bauman:Oh, wow.
Cary Hakam:And so when they showed up in my real life, I was like, oh, here I am.
Sam Bauman:I expected you.
Cary Hakam:Yes. Well, I didn't really expect you like that, but it's like that was a weird dream and a very vivid dream. And then to see them and real life, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm doing the right thing.
Sam Bauman:How did you meet them? Like, were you seeking out Chinese medicine at the time?
Cary Hakam:No. Well, I knew I was going to do Chinese medicine. I had been traveling and living in Asia for five and a half years and I'd met a yoga teacher in Singapore when I was 22 and I was doing a lot of yoga and he was like 72, Chinese fellow who had spent a bunch of years india and in Tibet and those. I would probably be at his apartment in Singapore four hours a day, four days a week and just one one. And during that time of a lot of changes, internal changes are happening where I would dream something at night and it would show up the next day or I'd see something and synchronicities would start to happen in my life. And I'd come back to the States after a couple years and I continued to do yoga, but I was, I tested into third year Chinese at the U. And so I do my classwork in the daytime, come back and do yoga at night. And one of those nights I was having, I had a vision sort of internally of. I could see in my body of these lines of light. They looked like fiber optic cables going through my whole body with little balls of light on them. And I could push one part of my hip and make this whole line light up from my eye down to my little toe. And I thought it was weird because I was. I mean, things like that had been happening, but I Didn't give it too much attention or weirdness because I'd been seeing these kind of things before, but this was kind of the first in my body. And a few months later, I dropped out again and. And was back in Asia, and I was biking home from teaching. And I walked in and I asked the doctor if I could shadow him because someone who I'd met at a hostel had told me that they'd gotten acupuncture. And I thought that was interesting. What's that about? And so I saw that sign in Chinese and I asked him, and he said, oh, yeah, come on in, strange foreigner. I'll let you. He asked his patients. There was a couple there, and they said, okay. And I watched him put these needles in a young woman's back. And they just disappeared. I just sunk into their back and I just. I felt a little nauseous and clammy and excused myself and went out and sat in the lobby and breathed into a paper bag and caught myself. And I was looking up on the wall and he had a chart of. Turned out to be the acupuncture meridians. And I recognized what I had seen in my body. And so I asked him, what is this? And he told me, and I asked him about the one from the eye down to the foot. And he goes, that's a danjing. That's the gallbladder meridian. And so he started giving me books on it. And so I knew it was too early. I was still. I think I was at 26 at that time. And I knew someday I would do this. But then it wasn't until I was 30, 32, that I met Dr. He. When I was back in the States, I'd finished my degree in Chinese studies, and she was doing a Tai Chi demonstration at a FEMA feminist eclectic martial arts here in town. And my girlfriend at the time was in that. And so I was. Just went there for that demonstration, and someone there had a asthma attack during the performance. And I heard Dr. He telling her interpreter that she had herbs for the asthma. But the interpreter had told her that, well, we don't have a car. We don't. There's nothing we can do. So I walked up and I said, well, I have a car. I speak Chinese. I can take you. So I drove her home to her home, and we got herbs. And on the way I asked her if she needed an English teacher. And she said, yes, but what can I teach you? And I said, how about Chinese medicine? And so she invited me over the next day, and pretty soon we're doing it a couple times a week. It would be very short with the lessons because she got fed up. We can only do this half hour of English lessons. She can't do more. And then she taught me some Chinese medicine, but then she'd say, let's play ping pong. Play ping pong for two or three hours. And that went on for a few months until she asked me to if I wanted to interpret it in her clinic. And so that's what I did. And I pretty much became her interpreter and her assistant for the next 25 years.
Sam Bauman:Wow.
Cary Hakam:Yeah. Her boss opened up a school, and he was paying me very little, so I made a deal with him that I would, if I could go to school, he'd give me a break in tuition while I worked in the clinics in the daytime from nine to six every day, and I'd go to school at night from 6 to 10 every night for four years.
Sam Bauman:And somewhere along the way, you had a child too.
Cary Hakam:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:Throw that into the mix.
Cary Hakam:Right. And that was my mooring, because I was planning on going back to my. I had a sailboat. I'd given my first sailboat away, but I was buying another one. I could sail around the world. That was my plan foiled by the kid. It was a blessing.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:Liam's a blessing. And so the combination of having a child and realizing. Because after I met Dr. He and I started working in her clinic, she said, my teacher is coming. And that was Dr. Gu, who was 10 years older than her. And I started working in her clinic two days a week, and then his clinic two days a week because they both work under the same boss at the TCM health centers. And. And after a few months of doing that, I remembered I had dreamt about them.
Sam Bauman:Oh, wow.
Cary Hakam:And that's more of a. What kept me here, because I was, you know, I was a traveler. I wanted to keep moving, and now I have a kid and.
Sam Bauman:But to have met these people that came to you in a dream felt like you had to stick around for that.
Cary Hakam:Exactly.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:So, yeah, it was kind of mythic in a way.
Sam Bauman:Have there been. I mean, you talked about some of the rocky spots being earlier on. I mean, what. What are some of those toughest moments that you've experienced? And what's kept you going? What's kept you motivated through those tough spots?
Cary Hakam:I think it's. I mean, luckily, I think I came at a time when the wave of Chinese medicine was starting to Crest in this country where more people had heard about it. I think the generation before me had a tougher time and insurance started to cover it. Although I don't work with insurance companies just because I'm too small of a business and I don't want to take a day out of my week to do paperwork.
Sam Bauman:Yeah, I don't blame you.
Cary Hakam:But it's. Yeah, I mean, but it's really a boon to people who are good at that because some people are good at connecting with that kind of. And getting reimbursements. So yes, I think the struggles have been. It's not easy work, but it's not. I mean it's. I mean I get a lot of energy from my patients as well as me helping them. They totally feed me. And so there's a give and take and I feel like really nurtured in this business. Yeah. I mean knowing that I'm doing the thing I'm supposed to be doing here is I think it's rare. And so, and the people I've talked to who are doing things that they love, that's what we bond on is like we found our calling. And, and so I, I mean I help people all the time through talk and acupuncture in the medicine and I find myself expressing those sort of truisms or these ways that guided me. I remember reading once that there's many paths to follow, but there's only one path with heart. And that has always stuck with me. And so I just encourage people to just keep following their heart because that's gonna be the truth. The heart. The heart has its saying in French. It's like the heart has its reasons that see, reason does not know. So I just, it's part of the faith and it's much more unknown in the world. And getting people to be comfortable with that.
Sam Bauman:Sure.
Cary Hakam:And just trusting themselves in their heart to find their way forward.
Sam Bauman:Well, and I can certainly see why that mindset, that perspective would help carry you through some of those challenging times. Yes. I'm working 12 hour days between work and school, but.
Cary Hakam:And kid.
Sam Bauman:Yeah, and kid. But I'm doing something that I love and I have faith or I trust that the future will bring, you know, some relief from that heavy workload.
Cary Hakam:Right.
Sam Bauman:Yeah. I'm just thinking about what you said earlier about, you know, giving to the community too. And it's something that we have talked a lot about with the businesses that we've interviewed is just that for a small business in particular, there's kind of a symbiotic relationship between the business owner and the community where you've made choices to sacrifice, in some cases, financial gains to contribute to the community in a specific way. But in some ways, that's also what's keeping you afloat because it's sort of nurturing you in a different way.
Cary Hakam:Right. Yeah. I remember Dr. Ho told me when I first started with her and before we even started working in the clinic together, before we played ping pong, she was, she said, you know, you're never going to get rich doing this, but you'll always have a bowl of rice. And she said, like the. Also the relationships you have with your patients are invaluable.
Sam Bauman:Yeah. If you know what your goals are and you're clear on that, and you know that your goal is not to, you know, become a millionaire doing this work, then it probably makes it a little bit easier to weather those challenging times.
Cary Hakam:Yeah. And it changed. You know, I did think before I chose this that I was gonna sail around the world.
Sam Bauman:That's.
Cary Hakam:And so I think that was hard for me to like, give up that dream.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:Or put it on hold because it's still on hold.
Sam Bauman:You haven't given up on it?
Cary Hakam:I haven't given up.
Sam Bauman:That's good. I mean, you own your business. And although the people that work here with you are not your employees, like you said, you're still in some ways responsible for them. You're responsible for this space and for providing that consistency. Like you said, how do you balance all of that? You know, you're doing your practice, but then you're also, like you said, you have inventory, you have all of these other things. What is that experience like for you of bringing those other tasks into your work?
Cary Hakam:Yeah, good question. I think part of it is like, how do you balance, like, how do you feel in balance in life? I mean, there's a Chinese philosophy of the Taoist philosophy where you need to be like they say, heaven, earth and human. And we need to connect it. And the symbol for King or someone who's in that archetypical place of God in it is three lines and a line in the middle. And that three, first top line is heaven, the middle line is human, and the bottom line is earth. And then it's connecting all of that and being. And so that, for me, it's like living a life in balance. Health, getting good sleep, getting good exercise, you know, having good relationships, having good habits, doing yoga and meditation, having an inner life as well as an Outer life and balance and whatever is going to bring in balance. And so. So with, like, the business part, like, if I'm feeling too much stress one thing, I quickly let known by the forces of nature, I'll get sick or stressed out and start snapping at my partner and being. Yeah. Being irascible or whatever.
Sam Bauman:And then what do you do in those situations?
Cary Hakam:Well, there's. We look forward to trips and travel and planning. And we got a camper and a puppy for Covid. The COVID package. And we take off every winter, and partly because my wife's done with winters, and so we drive somewhere like she has a sister in Miami. And we also went to the west coast, and she would spend the whole winter there with the puppy in the camper. And I'd fly back and forth and work as the business allowed, as my patients allowed.
Sam Bauman:So for you, balancing the tasks of owning a business in which you also are providing the service that the business provides really starts with life balance. And it seems like the more you are taking care of yourself, the less susceptible you are to that feeling of stress and overwhelm when it comes to the work.
Cary Hakam:Right. Yeah. There's not really much of a separation.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:It feels like this is. I'm not leaving, you know, to go somewhere else to work or. And figuratively and literally, but. But this is what I'm doing, so I'm not. I'm not. There's not a separation. Internal.
Sam Bauman:I think that's. That's such an interesting topic. It's come up before as well. Like, maybe it's the industry that you're in, and maybe it's just the way that you approach your work. But I think for a long time, the common perspective on work is you clock in, you clock out, and that's your separate self. And then you have your, you know, your life outside of work, and that's your, you know, that's kind of who you really are. And we're seeing more of, you know, a desire to integrate those things and to not be working a job where you feel like you need to keep it completely separate from your life for whatever reason. And you know, you're doing work that you love so much. It makes sense to me that you would not really feel like you wanted to or needed to keep those two things separate.
Cary Hakam:Right. I mean, Christina, my wife, has helped me from the beginning, like, to. I would, like, work on weekends. And she said, no, we just gotta have some kind of boundaries. So we have, you know, and so that's helped and since COVID and I think Covid's helped a lot of people in that regard. People realizing, well, I don't need to do that, sit in that car and commute to this place and work for. And so people have figured out they need to find something that is more in balance with their values. And I've kept my hours, pared down our IORs a lot for Covid so that the different practitioners could work and there wouldn't be at separate times, so that there wouldn't be a crossover of people in the lobby.
Cary Hakam: And so I would work a full day, Monday and Tuesday, and then on Wednesdays it'd be done by 2 or 3, and then Thursday and Friday it done at 1 or 12:30. And so I've kept that as a. That's a nice balance. I didn't want to go back to, you know, eight hours days. Well, Mondays and Tuesdays are long days.
Sam Bauman:But right when you're doing.
Cary Hakam:I have energy for that.
Sam Bauman:Yeah. After a long weekend, that's so important, especially in the work that you're doing. You know, it's a healing practice and you need to be able to be, you know, yourself kind of, you know, have that energy and be able to give that to your. To your clients and.
Cary Hakam:Yeah, yeah. And I don't like to rush it with patients. And so. And I don't think patients like it either.
Sam Bauman:They can feel it, I'm sure. Yeah.
Cary Hakam:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:So what advice do you have for other people who are, you know, either who own their own business, who are interested in starting their own business in general? Yeah.
Cary Hakam:I mean, what I've said earlier is like, you know, follow that path with heart is the main. Because if you. If you're. If you love it, you say your heart's there. It'll see you through the tough times because it's a lifeline when things are dark, you know, and so there's so many ways to be. And I think it's harder when, you know, I think we have such a bias in this, in our culture to have a map of what things should look like instead of trusting the territory. And I think sometimes it's important to fold up that map and trust the territory. And what better way to get through the territory is through the heart.
Sam Bauman:Yeah. That really resonates with a lot of what you've been saying. You are clearly very guided by your values in all of the decisions that you make. You know, those are the things that are telling you, should I give energy to this? Should I give attention to this? And I appreciate you saying that. That's really more important than, you know, having a solid business plan and knowing what next step you're going to take or what your business will look like in 10 years. As much as just knowing you have the compass that you need to help you navigate that.
Cary Hakam:Yeah, thanks. Yeah. I would fail all those, you know, 10 year plans, five year plans, because I had no idea what it was going to look like or what I wanted it to look like. And just for the moment, this is right.
Sam Bauman:I think that can be such a relief, especially when you're running a small business. Because. Because it feels impossible to predict 10 years out when you're still figuring things out or you know that things are going to change so rapidly, you just as soon made the plan as you have to throw it out and change it.
Cary Hakam:Right. And I think we need to calibrate our own compass towards what the territory presents.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:Because you never know what's going to be over the horizon.
Sam Bauman:I wanted to ask you about something you said at the beginning of our conversation about bringing in other practitioners that you think represent the values of the QI House, and I'm curious how you do that. What is the process like of connecting with those people and sort of vetting them or making sure that they're going to be a good fit for what you're trying to create and maintain here?
Cary Hakam:I'm not sure if it's. It's more of a feeling and it's vague. And I think the people came to me and a couple people over who have asked to come through, and then we have an interview and they. If they didn't fit, they chose not to come. Continue. I think people who come in and sit in the lobby and feel the energy of the space, if they resonate, they amplify their resonation, their resonance. And I think, like, I think Megan, the first person she was, she just lives like six blocks away and was curious because she's an acupuncturist and is working in St. Paul. And when were working on the space, we just walked by and she dropped a note in the mailbox. And I think that's how she's been here ever since. She has a great practice and she works a lot with fertility and women. And everybody, like I said, is everyone has their own niche.
Sam Bauman:When you're, when you're considering hiring new people, or I guess not hiring, but allowing to join. Yeah. Do you think about that? Like, you know, oh, we already have somebody doing this kind of specialty, or is it really More about that connection and the kind of personal style.
Cary Hakam:Truly it's very rare that I'm like looking or people coming in. It's just like I've. At the beginning I just didn't want to hire anyone first. I wanted to see how the space felt and I think I was here for a few months before Megan showed up. And then, and then another year or so then Nikki showed up, but she was just as a nutritionist while she was doing her acupuncture school. And then we also had a massage therapist who is Christina's father's masseuse or massage therapist. And it turned out that she was married to an old roommate of mine. And it was like a small, little, small little world.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:So it's. I think it's just I didn't really look same kind of thing. It's more like feeling just kind of worked out. This is what the territories and if it looks not good then I turn my ship the other way.
Sam Bauman:This is just I think such a nice, refreshing conversation about business and I think that it's so easy to get caught up in the grind of having to work harder to make it or to. We were talking about social media when I arrived and just the challenges of that versus the payoff and is it really worth it, you know and I just really appreciate the kind of alternative approach that you take to running your business. It seems like it's working really well for you.
Cary Hakam:Yeah, I think so. After a while it takes on its own life. I've been doing for so long that I haven't had to market ever.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:People will tell people this worked for me, you should try it. And there's enough momentum in the general consciousness that it's more acceptable and it's.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Cary Hakam:Especially in Minneapolis and more open minded cities like this.
Sam Bauman:Very cool. So we've talked a lot about Community today and on every episode I ask the guest what is a business in our community that you want to highlight because you think that they are doing good work or deserve to be recognized?
Cary Hakam:There are a few, I mean one, it's my neighbor Christopher. He runs Launa Bread on Lake Street. But before that he would deliver make bread. He learned the baking art in Europe and Old World sourdough and really good. And I'd just go across my street and pick it up from his front porch and. But now I have to go to Launa which is a little bit further but it's worth the trip. And I like. Yeah, I think they do really well. Like it's become. It's a brick and mortar bakery and it's got a good, loyal following. And yeah, so that's Laune Bread. L A U N E. We'll definitely.
Sam Bauman:Have to check it out. I'm a big fan of bread and bakeries.
Cary Hakam:Yeah, I think you'd love it.
Sam Bauman:Cool. Thank you so much for talking with me today, Cary. It's been a pleasure.
Cary Hakam:Thank you, Sam.
Sam Bauman:Thank you so much. To Cary, owner of The Qi House. I had such a good time talking. With him this week. You can find Cary on his website@theCaryhouse.com that's T H E Q I H O u S e and we'll put that in the show notes as well. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast. And tune in next week. Thanks and have a good day.
