Not So Small
Running a small business is anything but small. In each episode our host, Sam Bauman, asks small business owners about their challenges, triumphs, and the passion that keeps them going. Through this, Not So Small seeks to spotlight and strengthen the small businesses that are dedicated to their community and care about more than the bottom line.
Not So Small
As You Are Therapy: Sarah Lindsey & Adam Steinbach
In the season two premiere of Not So Small, host Sam Bauman and co-host Adam Rondeau sit down with Sarah Lindsay and Adam Steinbach, the duo behind As You Are Therapy, a Twin Cities therapy practice that's revolutionizing mental health care through authentic connection and community building. What started as two like-minded therapists wanting to create a more genuine therapeutic experience has evolved into a practice that prioritizes accessibility, destigmatization, and collaborative relationships over traditional competitive models.
Sarah and Adam share their journey from traditional therapy training to creating a space where both therapists and clients can show up authentically. Their breakthrough moment came with "Therapy on Tap," a community event at local breweries where people can meet therapists in a casual setting to find the right fit, solving the daunting challenge of finding a therapist that keeps so many people from getting help.
The conversation explores their decision to forgo insurance in favor of sliding scale fees, their philosophy of therapeutic authenticity versus the "blank slate" model, and how embracing their own needs and humanity has made them more effective healers. Sarah reflects on how encouraging clients to bring their full selves creates permission for authentic self-expression.
Throughout, both therapists emphasize interdependence over competition, sharing how they actively refer to other practitioners and collaborate with colleagues to ensure everyone finds their right therapeutic match. They've built more than just a practice. They've created a model for how mental health care can be community-centered, accessible, and refreshingly human.
As As You Are Therapy looks toward the future, they're expanding their community events and continuing to break down barriers that keep people from accessing mental health support, proving that when businesses operate from values of authenticity and generosity, they create ripple effects that heal entire communities.
Host & Show Info
- Host Name: Sam Bauman (she/her)
- About the Host: Sam is the President of Mellowlark Labs, a Twin Cities-based small business consulting agency. She has a masters degree in counseling psychology, a field she worked in for several years before applying her skills in business, and is certified in Organization Development.
Podcast Website
Sound Editing By: Adam Rondeau
Podcast Art By: Andy Bauman (website)
(Theme Song)
Sam Bauman:Oh my goodness. We are so excited to be back for season two of not so Small, the podcast where we ask small businesses the big questions. We had such an amazing time recording season one and getting to meet all of the incredible people behind the small businesses we know and love. We've got so many good stories to share with you this season. And this season, our producer, Adam will be joining me in our conversations. This first episode is one I am particularly excited about. We sat down with Sarah Lindsay and Adam Steinbach, the duo behind asYouAreTherapyFinal Are Therapy, a Twin Cities therapy practice. These two are committed to providing authentic relationship centered therapy and they're bringing some really innovative and revolutionary ideas to the world of mental health care, which we really need. We talked about their decision to ditch insurance in favor of sliding scale fees, how they're building authentic connections in their community, and what it's like to run a business together using interdependence and collaboration rather than competition. It's such a refreshing take on mental health care that puts human connection at the center of everything they do. I really can't wait for you to hear this one. I hope you enjoy.
Sarah Lindsey:Yeah. Well, I'm Sarah Lindsey. I'm a marriage and family therapist and went to school with my partner who's here, Adam, business partner. And we started as you are therapy almost three years ago now. And we're two like minded relational therapists that love doing individual, family and couples work from kind of a cozy and authentic place.
Adam Steinbach:Yeah. And I'm Adam Steinbach and I'm also a marriage and family therapist. And we created this like three years ago and we're really excited about where things are headed and trying to get more mental health into the community.
Sam Bauman:I love that. So you've sort of previewed my next question, which is tell me about the problem that you set out to solve when you started this business. Obviously there's a need in the community for mental health services, but a little more specifically, what is it that as you are brings?
Adam Steinbach:Yeah, I think one of the things Sarah and I really value is like authentic connection and like really getting to know people and getting to help people. And so we wanted to do that as therapists and recently been trying to get that more into the community and trying to find ways to bring people into the mental health world and bring people in like, oh, okay, here's how I connect with therapists. Here's how I can exist with other people in the community. There's such a need for that. I feel like, especially in the Last couple of years, just more community connection.
Sarah Lindsey:Yeah, totally. I mean, destigmatizing mental health care in general. And I think that starts with therapists and ourselves. I tend to be really transparent with clients. I'm a fan of therapy. My own personal therapy has been transformative and helpful for me, and in a lot of ways, more helpful than my graduate degree, doing my own work and improving my regulation skills, learning how to be in right relationship to my own struggles, but also people in my life. And being transparent has built some of the most lasting connections, personally and professionally, that I've had. And Adam and I just kind of continued in parallel on our career journey, accidentally ending up at a group practice in St. Paul, where I saw him walking up to the building for an interview and hollered over to the owner to hire him. We went to grad school together, and he's awesome. Yeah. So it's been fun to see our mutual interests kind of flourish in this business. Business model where we're doing mental health care, but also really interested in helping people improve their access to mental health care. And a lot of that looks like us talking about being therapists and doing therapy and being humans in the community with other folks.
Adam Steinbach:Right. Wanting to be more warm and less sterile than, like, some therapy can be that way. And so we really want that. Warmth, I think, is a big value in have.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah. So you both worked at the same group practice and then decided to leave that group practice to start this. Was there, like, a conversation that happened where you were like, we're loving this, but we wish A, B, C, or D, you know?
Adam Steinbach:Yeah, I. I think it's kind of.
Adam Rondeau:Not to, you know.
Adam Steinbach:Right. It's a natural progression, I think, for therapists to go from being, like, independent contractors like were, and then to starting their own. Own thing. Not everybody decides to do it, but we got to a point where, like, okay, well, what can we create? What do we want? What values do we have? And how do we want to make something our own? And kind of had grown as far as we could being independent contractors, and so decided, like, this is the next step. And I can say that I definitely wouldn't have done it without Sarah. I kind of pushed her to leave, like, hey, let's do this together. Like, come on. Because I was not gonna do it by myself.
Sarah Lindsey:My husband kept being like, when are you gonna start your own thing? You know, you're gonna start your own thing. And I was pregnant with my second kid, and Adam was like, all right, let's do it. And I was like, Adam, pace with me. I wanna do this. And actually, I'm just so grateful for, like, I don't know, Adam, for your vision and leap. I feel like oftentimes Adam will be the one that sets. Let's do the thing. And yeah, I throw myself fully into it. That's been true of a recent business venture we've had too, with therapy on tap.
Sam Bauman:Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that because I would imagine that's one of the big ways that you are sort of changing the conversation around mental health.
Adam Steinbach:Yeah, I feel like that's kind of the start of what we want to be doing and kind of changing it. So basically the idea came up through kind of like wanting to do a therapy market. My wife was looking for a therapist, couldn't find one. And she's like, I wish there's a space where there's just therapists around. Could walk up to each one of them and kind of do like a Speed dating. Yeah, like speed dating interview you. So I know what it's like because she would send an email, wait a week, get a response, a 15 minute phone consult, like, nope, not the right fit. So I was like, hey, the idea is great. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that if you're okay with it. And so just reached out to Bad Weather Brewing, was like, hey, I kind of have this. Started this idea. And they're like, great, let's do it. And I was like, okay, I guess we're just gonna do it. So we got eight or nine different therapists who we knew involved, brought them into Bad Weather Brewery, had community members come in. I. Somewhere upwards of 50 people came. I feel like, I don't know, maybe a little bit more, maybe a little less somewhere in that area. And now we're doing a second one in a couple of weeks, and we have 17 therapists coming, and over a hundred people on Facebook say they're coming, so.
Sam Bauman:Amazing.
Adam Steinbach:Yeah, we'll see how it goes.
Adam Rondeau:I mean, when you think about it, we all know this from our own probably experiences with therapy. But when you want to start dedicating energy to that search, it can feel daunting in so many ways. And then when you, the, the experience you described your wife having is like, oh, my gosh, I can't put in that much energy to find out, oh, this isn't a fit again. And then I start over. So, like, I mean, it's. This feels like a revolutionary idea to me. I'm not kidding. It feels Like a big deal.
Sarah Lindsey:Well. And when you're the spouse of a therapist and you can't find a therapist, we have an access issue. Right. Because we're well networked in each other.
Adam Rondeau:That's a good point.
Sarah Lindsey:And it's still hard to find the right fit.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:So say a little bit more about that, because I think to the untrained eye, something like therapy on tap is just welcoming the competition into your space. Right. And I don't think it is that. But tell me about why.
Sarah Lindsey:I love that question for so many reasons. One, because in small business, like, we talk about competition, I had a mentor who I credit a lot of the my process as a therapist and business owner to, who taught me about the art of giving something away. She always talked about offering a free consult or offering a free training to the community as a way to get yourself out there. And also. Yeah. To give away some of the knowledge or the gift of we have. And so therapy on tap feels to me a little bit like giving something away. We. It's free to the public. Anyone can come. But I also believe in generosity with my colleagues and referrals. And so that's part of the business model that we have is I think we've trusted the relationships we build with colleagues and that if we lift each other up and we don't try to fight for clients, but we hope that everybody finds the right fit, that we actually are serving our community as a resource and more than just serving the clients who walk through our individual doors.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah. Or serving yourself. Right. I mean, the competitive model, especially in this space, is so, like, it's just the wrong perspective on it. You want to be with the right people for them and for yourself. But then, like, your calendar can only fill up so much. You'd rather have it filled with people that you're serving in a way that really suits them.
Sam Bauman:Also, you know, you talked about the fit of a therapist and a client, and I think that could be said for all businesses. You know, two people providing the same service, if they really know who they are at their core, they're not going to be the same. And therefore, you know, what is the right fit for one person won't be the right fit for another. So there's maybe less competition than it seems like, but.
Sarah Lindsey:Well, and especially if people know what to look for, if people know that they can get the right fit or that a really good fit is available to them. I've had lots of clients who've had not great experiences with therapy. They've gone with big agencies, maybe their only access to therapy is somebody who offers a therapeutic modality that's not what they need. And so part of what I'm also hoping to do is demonstrate to the public that there's a lot of different modalities and so people can see what's available.
Adam Steinbach:So when you're there, you can talk to, you know, you could talk to all 17 people. It might be a lot, but you can talk to five or six different therapists who are all therapists, have the same license, maybe even, but are so different in who they are as human beings. And you're like, oh, yeah, this feels different. And I don't have to spend, you know, a month getting the five. Find, you know, these five different people. They're all right here, and I can talk to them.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:Adam, you said that this is just the beginning of your ideas for what you want to do to make mental health services more accessible in the community. What else do you have in mind?
Adam Steinbach:Yeah, so Sarah and I have talked about doing different types of trainings for both people who are like mental health providers, but. But then also for the community as well, doing, you know, whether that's not a training, but like, seminar, I guess.
Sarah Lindsey:Workshop.
Adam Steinbach:Workshop, that would be the right word. Doing, like a workshop to try to just bring more awareness to some specialties that either Sarah or I have or that we both have kind of together also want to try to bring to do something similar to therapy on tap at other businesses. Sort of like, I don't know, like a Target or a Best Buy. Like, hey, if you care about your employees, like, let's bring in 30 mental health people, you know, therapists who can be here, who they can access therapy, you know, kind of putting these businesses on the spot, I suppose, of like, hey, care about your employees, because that's a space where people have to be and might be struggling and not, you know, not able to be accommodated in the same ways.
Sarah Lindsey:Yeah, yeah. So improving access by going to people where they already are and teaching them about therapy and then also inviting therapists and the public in to learn about some of the areas that we have learned a lot about in our work as therapists that we only otherwise have influence over, you know, when we're talking to our maybe 20, 30, 40 clients, depending on how many someone sees. So, yeah, I have a lot of ideas about trainings I'd love to offer. A lot of them are around relationship and attachment, how to be in healthy and right relationship with ourselves and other people. And I think those are so conducive to experiential conversational gatherings. Yeah.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:I have to ask, you know, you've talked a lot about access and I also know that you don't, you aren't credentialed with insurance companies. Tell me about that conversation and why you ended up making that decision.
Sarah Lindsey:Great question.
Adam Steinbach:Well, we tried when we first opened.
Sam Bauman:Sure.
Adam Steinbach:Our attempt or our thought was like, we need to get in with insurance companies because where were before accepted insurance. Okay, need to get in with them. Went through the process, denied, kind of said there's too many mental health, there's too many providers in the Twin Cities. And I do believe legislation has changed on that at least slightly.
Sarah Lindsey:But, but mind you, this was during COVID when tons of people were struggling needing a therapist and Adam and I opened our business as virtual only to keep overhead low while were getting started. And part of their reason was that our area was saturated with mental health professionals, which just felt not true. And then also they talked about wanting us to have an in person office during a time people were not going in, which was strange. And it ended up being a bit of a blessing in disguise because we wanted to keep things sustainable energy wise and didn't put a lot of energy into it. After we got some denials and decided that it made way more sense to try on a new model, an equitable model where we had a higher private pay rate for folks who could afford it and that would subsidize doing lots of sliding fee work. So I still do sliding fee work, pro bono work and practice, like communicating with my clients about if they are in a financially tight spot, then we reduce the rate.
Adam Steinbach:Right. And there's some limitations with insurance as far as like diagnosing and making sure like all that extra paperwork, all the things that go into doing that extra work, that kind of takes away from our ability to do therapy as we want to. I honestly can't diagnose all of my clients with, you know, like looking at the dsm, which I have other issues with. But I don't want to be constrained and say like, okay, well you're going to have to leave because I can't justify this, using this DSM that again, some problems with. And so like Sarah said, like trying to do sliding scale, trying to do some pro bono work like wanting to give back to the community, wanting to get back to people who maybe can't afford it without insurance. Lots of people use their HSA or their FSA with us as well or I've got a couple of clients who submit, like, out of network, and we're more than happy to provide those things, too.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah, yeah.
Sam Bauman:If you're not. If you have access, but the service that you're providing is constrained by rules or limitations that don't really make sense for the care that is needed, then is it really access anyways?
Adam Steinbach:Right.
Sarah Lindsey:Well. And we would like therapy to also be seen as preventative care. You know, we have a system that is like a sick care system. And so forcing a therapeutic model of mental health or relational model into a medical system doesn't work well. And I still thought my ethics would be that I would take insurance for access reasons and I would jump through the hoops to make sure people could get coverage, but have found that there is. It's actually really therapeutic for me and clients to be collaborative about the way we do money and fees. And that also doesn't have to be a secret, that it's something that we can negotiate and practice being in. Right. Relationship around with each other.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah. I was just thinking about how it's like. Like, I've always. When I talk to people about therapy, it's like going to the gym for your, like, emotional state, your mental state. Right. It's like, we don't, you know, you go to the gym not because you're like, I'm getting too weak most of the time. You're going to the gym because you're like, I want to stay feeling the way that my body feels. And so I'd never really considered. And, you know, the three of you all have some, you know, expertise in this space. I never really considered that insurance is looking for you to say, here's the thing that they are in the DSM and that's why you should pay for them to receive the service. That's bonkers to me.
Sam Bauman:Not only that, but those diagnoses follow you for a long time.
Sarah Lindsey:Right. Well. And there's an access, like, you think about. I'm thinking about people who don't have some of the privileges, too. Like, I'm thinking about black folks. I'm thinking about people of color. My husband is a person of color and someone who has had such. It's been so challenging. Right. To find a therapist and then, like, a culturally responsive approach to therapy that maybe doesn't involve diagnosis. There's just so many other systemic issues with. Yeah. With diagnosis. And it's really nice to be able to see people as people. And sometimes I think we can do more harm. Pathologizing Somebody's symptoms, especially in, like, trying political times.
Sam Bauman:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So in the three years that you've been open, what would you say is the biggest risk that you've taken as a business?
Sarah Lindsey:Well, the biggest. I think the biggest risk was doing an immediate transition. Leaving our group practice and going straight and fully into our own practice together was a risk. And then also transitioning from insurance to a private pay model at the same time was probably. And I know there's a lot of therapists who are deterred from going into private practice for this reason. It can feel really scary to build a caseload. So that's also something that we're offering consultation around as a branch of our business is. Yeah. Consultation for therapists who are interested in opening private practices.
Adam Steinbach:Yeah, I'd say that's. When you asked the question, I was like, I don't really know if there was that many risks, but I think that's because we did it together.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Adam Steinbach:So it didn't feel as risky. Kind of had Sarah to, like, pick me up when I was feeling scared and kind of vice versa there. So, yeah, it's definitely that first part.
Sarah Lindsey:And also we did feel scared. I'm looking back and, like, were scared. I was scared. I called you were scared. You called me. We also. Starting therapy on tap and putting that out into the world was. Yeah. Also scary.
Adam Steinbach:Right. Because it's not something we've heard anyone else doing. And, like, there's a little bit of this fear of, like, how is this gonna be received? Are people gonna like it? Are people not gonna like it? Are like, is someone to come after us for ethics and stuff like that?
Sam Bauman:It's like, I had, like, oh, that's interesting.
Adam Steinbach:A ton of, like, anxiety around that. And Sarah really was like, no, this is the right thing. Like, keep going.
Sarah Lindsey:And to clarify, right, we're not drinking or providing therapy at the event. The public gets to come and have a brew if they want and meet the Some people. And. Yeah, and we're really excited about expanding into other spaces outside of breweries, too. We thought about libraries, we thought about parks. We thought about other places to host these markets, too.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:How do you connect with other therapists to create an event like that or just to keep your network up for making referrals?
Adam Steinbach:It's been a lot of word of mouth, either people who we met in grad school or who we've met outside of that through trainings or through our work when were at our other practice. Yeah, a lot of just word of Mouth, I suppose.
Sarah Lindsey:I think we also take a pretty interdisciplinary approach, which is unique. When I got established here at our Minneapolis location, I started chatting with other small businesses around, like people providing functional medicine services, people providing nutrition services, other helping and healing supports for people. That's kind of one of the ways I do therapy is holistically. And I like to have a referral network in my head all the time so that I'm not a sole resource for clients. My goal for them is that they feel supported and well rounded in their lives, especially if I'm unavailable to them. Them. And that has been a wonderful way to network, is chatting with people who are working with bodies and realizing, wow, that they want someone who works with trauma and looping around that way.
Adam Steinbach:Yeah. We've had a few people who showed up to our last event and were like, hey, this seems really great. How do I get involved next time?
Sam Bauman:Oh, that's great.
Adam Steinbach:It's kind of a running list of emails right now.
Sam Bauman:So. Yeah.
Sarah Lindsey:And some folks, honestly, we've really run into and chatted with some reporters who were intrigued because they've had a hard time finding a therapist. And they've, you know, when we talked about it, we've gotten some, like, speed dating for therapists. Fascinating. The other thing that seemed to resonate is this idea that it's a vibe check that could be available, that you could just get a vibe check and see what people feel like. Yeah. And folks who are clearly, like, have had a hard time finding the right fit for themselves are intrigued by that.
Adam Steinbach:Right.
Sam Bauman:Well, it really comes back to the idea of authentic connection that you started with at the beginning. That is so much of what makes therapy successful. And the vibe check is exactly the way that you start to figure out if that's going to be possible with a person. It's kind of crazy that it hasn't happened yet. We don't have that thing happening.
Adam Rondeau:Good job. Incredible.
Sarah Lindsey:You know, but this is like. It speaks to this idea of relational ethics, Right. That, like, the space between me and you feels good or doesn't feel good. And how do we. Right. How do we make that measurable? It's really hard. It's felt, it's embodied. We live in a culture that tells us to leave our body to consume, to avoid, to ignore, to push on, to put on a smile, to perform. And so authentic connection is not right. It's not just lip or as you are. Therapy is not just, you know, lip service, like, show up as you are. It's really an embodied Experience. I have clients who try on clothing that helps them feel like themselves, and they try it on first in a session, you know, or they. They might practice what they would say. Learning how to be fully ourselves, I think is something that actually happens in relationship. And we. We might not. We might meet someone and be like, oh, I'm more myself than I've ever been being around you.
Adam Rondeau:So what in, like this journey, this three year journey of yours has felt like. Or maybe there's probably a few. And I imagine that therapy on tap, seeing the success of that first event was one of them. But like, the moments where you were just like, oh, my gosh, this is real, this is happening. And it feels so good. Right? Are there. Have there been other moments or is. Was that one of them? I guess I shouldn't assume you gotta.
Sarah Lindsey:Share your career high ex football player who shouted you out online.
Adam Steinbach:I'm sorry, I'm totally blank there.
Sam Bauman:Thinking about clients must not have been that good.
Adam Steinbach:Oh, yes. So we got connected with Twin Cities Live, which was great. They did an interview with us. Ben adam is an ex Vikings player who's like one of my favorite players of all time. And, like, just this great man who, like, I really admire. And they talked about our event and he was like, this is such an amazing idea. Like, this is incredible. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Ben adam likes my idea.
Sam Bauman:Ultimate validation.
Adam Steinbach:That felt really good to me.
Adam Rondeau:I love that.
Adam Steinbach:Yes. That. Yeah. Sorry. I was totally thinking about clients.
Adam Rondeau:I mean, that makes sense too, that your head went there, but yeah, as you would.
Sarah Lindsey:Adam, you're like, yeah, you really love the people. Well, we both love the people we work with. And there's so many highs that we, you know, career highs that I'll never probably tell anyone about or that I don't get to celebrate. I have a colleague who told me to have a smile file, which is just like this app or this notes app on my phone where I write down the successes so that I can reflect on them and revisit them because there's been so many since me starting this. And I'm looking forward to when we actually celebrate our business. Which means, like, we need to go out for a drink and cheers at some point too.
Adam Steinbach:Yeah, right? Yeah. I remember having this. Must have been in our first couple months of working. I had a client who I was seeing at our old place, and then she was like, since you started this, like, you're just a different therapist. And I remember, like, that really hit me. I was like, oh. Oh, my gosh. Like, why. Why am I different? What's different about this? And it took some time to kind of figure that out, but, like, part of it was not taking insurance, and part of it was being able to be authentically myself and, like, really able to, like, dig into who I wanted to be as a therapist without this kind of, like, looming presence of, like, you're gonna have to write the perfect progress note. So that way, insurance pays you so they know you're doing the right thing. And, like, have done incredible work since then and feels really good to. I don't want to say feel freer or looser, but kind of, well, space.
Sarah Lindsey:To be a little bit more human ourselves.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah.
Sarah Lindsey:Space to dream a little bit. That's. You know, sometimes I know my clients are starting to get better or live better when they're dreaming, they'll start talking about things they'd love to do in the future. And I'm recognizing all of a sudden, we're not talking about the past. We're not talking about. About trauma. And so Adam and I recently have just had this brainstorm of, you know, dreams for the business, ways we want to expand and be in community differently. And that is hitting me.
Sam Bauman:Yeah. I'm seeing this sort of parallel, like, therapeutic process happening for the two of you in your business where, like, you are doing this work to create a space that allows you to, like, remove some of the obstacles that have stopped you from fulfilling your potential. And now you're starting to reap the benefits of that.
Sarah Lindsey:Well, right. And some of that is relationships take two. And so for therapeutic relationship to be healthy, I have to be. Well.
Sam Bauman:Yeah.
Sarah Lindsey:And this idea, too, that we are each community members, and if we want the community to thrive, it's important to think about getting our own needs met. This is something that in graduate school, they. They kind of teach you to be a blank slate, not to talk about yourself, not really to have needs, especially of the client. And. And I have found that actually embracing that I have relational needs that I get met in these relationships and at work is so much more human and healthy and has allowed me to be messier and more human, but also more ethical.
Sam Bauman:And it probably keeps you from feeling burnt out quite as easily.
Sarah Lindsey:Absolutely. Especially with clients. I work with lots of neurodivergent, neurocomplex brilliant clients who have support needs that are different than a neurotypical person. And I found that me kind of doing this, like, therapeutic unmasking process of having needs in front of them has been Permission for them to be more authentically themselves and have more needs of their body in sessions. And that has been wonderful.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah. Yeah. When there's this separation between, like, our public self and our private self, it's so easy for us to tell ourselves the lie that, like, that person has it together. Look at. Why can't I just have it together with the way they do? And so if you share a little bit of yourself in that same way, it starts to become this, you know, feedback loop of empathy, and that. That creates a lot more opportunity for growth.
Sam Bauman:Well, honestly, I think what you're talking about is one of the reasons why I'm not a therapist anymore, because it felt very lonely and isolating. And I think part of the reason for that is that you're not really. You're told not to expect to get much back from the. The relationship. And it sounds like you're really rewriting that narrative well.
Sarah Lindsey:And to credit, some of, I think my influences, I think about. Briar Miller is retired now, was my mentor and was kind of. I think of her as like one of the founding mothers of the field of marriage and family therapy. Marriage and family therapy is a newer modality. It's really old, been around for like half a century, 50 years. Ish. And Briar Miller taught me a lot about true relational ethics, true relational therapy, true systems work. And in systems work, we are not separate. And this modality is so different than psychology. Right. Or then, like, I think about professional counseling that's just a little bit more individualistic in its approach. Social work has a little bit more overlap, but that tends to be even more macro. And what we're looking at is family systems. So Adam and I like to understand how people developed in the context of their families and relationships. And then we still see them in the context of their relationships today.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah.
Sam Bauman:What advice would you give to people who are looking to start a business? I mean, the two of you are obviously very into. Intimately connected to your work, but you're also business owners. So what would you say to somebody looking to start a business?
Adam Steinbach:I think it's something that really helped me was surround. I mean, Sarah, I think finding people who you really like are in good relationship with who can be there to either just support you or to also help you build something together and somebody you can help have a really good working relationship with. Yeah, Find. Find your people.
Sarah Lindsey:Yeah, find your people.
Adam Steinbach:Kind of my advice for anything that.
Sam Bauman:Means it's good advice.
Sarah Lindsey:Find your people. We also went to one of our mentors and former supervisors. And were like. And we're like, hey, tell us about what you think of us as a duo. So getting support for. For the relationship too. We talked about what are our pitfalls. Adam and I really talked about how do we say no to each other when we're making business decisions, how do we do. How do we want to do conflict, how do we want to do systems in healthy ways, and yet finding someone who things feel easeful with to begin with.
Adam Rondeau:Are there things that, in the exploration of how we say no to each other, how we sort of work through these things together, that you two have found as, like, useful tools in that communication? Because I know a lot of people that we talk to and many people who eventually end up with, like, staff underneath them, where they started off as a sole proprietor, and they've built up people to support. They have trouble letting go of control. And what you did was you walked into this thing, having to share control already. So what have you learned in that space?
Sarah Lindsey:Having to. And wanting to share control, not wanting all the control, Being overwhelmed, having two kids and being like, let's do this together.
Adam Steinbach:Adam.
Sarah Lindsey:Part of it was we both had two little kids, and were like, let's do this thing so that we can make our own schedules so that we don't have to feel so much stress. But I work with so many small business owners. It's one. A big part of my practice is working with small business owners who have a hard time letting go of control. And that is so tricky. Go find a therapist, a really good one, who is gonna help hold you accountable and help you practice doing it different because it needs and deserves support.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah. Yeah, right.
Adam Steinbach:I think we. We also went into it with the understanding that we both didn't want to say no to each other or didn't want to, like, cause that conflict. And so being able to call that out and, like, being able to learn about each other, like, hey, you're doing this too much. Like, take care of yourself. Like, do this thing. And like, being able to really have that. That positive relationship and know that we're both coming from it. Like, we want to create this thing that we really care about. We also just care about each other first.
Sam Bauman:Well, and even a step before your advice, find good people. It's know yourself, right? Because in order to know who you're going to connect well with and to be able to manage that relationship well and get as much out of it as you can, you have to have that self awareness. Like you're talking About.
Adam Rondeau:Yeah. And it sounds like, you know, your value. Your values feel really strong. Right. So anytime that there was, like, a question, right, go take care of yourself, you're like, okay, we've just established that a priority of ours is making sure that we take care of our personal selves, you know, and so when you have those things to fall back on, it's easier to make decisions where you're like, okay, we're confused with this problem. How do we overcome that?
Sarah Lindsey:Yeah. Well, there's also this concept of interdependence that we built into our business model. So you've probably heard of codependence. That means we're too much us, not enough me or independence. And none of us human beings are actually independent, even if we like to think we are. We all need each other. Interdependence is this idea that we need each other but have a whole self and have to be. Maintain a whole self to be well. And Adam and I applied that relational model to our business. So we have an umbrella company, and that's as you are therapy. But each of us independently contract out of our umbrella company, so our income doesn't impact each other. Our caseloads are separate. Adam and I have a lot of independence in that way, but are interdependent and dependent upon one another for things like marketing and shared values. Hold that together.
Adam Rondeau:Wow. Yeah. That's really beautiful to see it, like, structurally exist in tandem with the concept of it. Oh, that's really great.
Sam Bauman:Yeah. I'd love to hear your community spotlights. I mean, you guys are so focused on being involved and connected to your community. Tell us about a company that, you know that's doing amazing work.
Sarah Lindsey:Yeah, yeah, I do. I want to. Yeah, I want to talk about Jesse and Allison.
Adam Steinbach:Great.
Sarah Lindsey:I'll start by talking about Jessie. Jesse Leader is therapist and owner of the Moody Octopus Collective, which is a super rad therapy practice that she has grown to include a number of independent contractors as well. And Jesse is an indigenous woman who has just this amazing ability to lead, but also see a way that we could all be in relationship to each other differently. That I think is kind of innate to who she is, but also something that she just practices in therapy that she does in the training she facilitates. So can't recommend Jessie of Moody Octopus or her collective enough. And then I'm also thinking about BE Resale, which is over on Eat street in South Minneapolis. They are a clothing resale company. I've been going there for over a decade, and Allison is The owner, she's incredible and shared with me kind of early. In B, it's just capital B. So in B's life that it was like a place for misfits to feel safe. It was a place for community and I've just seen over the years how much she does for the community and it's a really great place. I always recommend to clients when they're looking to present more authentically themselves and like opting into ethical fashion. I'm like, go check out be resale. And Allison and I love the people she chooses to uplift the local art that they sell. And I've made friends there. They're just a rad community.
Sam Bauman:I'll have to go check them out. I'm always down for a thrift shop.
Sarah Lindsey:Go shopping and chat. They're amazing. This was great.
Sam Bauman:It was really great. Thank you both so much.
Adam Rondeau:Thank you.
Sam Bauman:A great conversation. Thanks for taking time out of your free days. And the weather's so nice out and you're stuck inside with us.
Sarah Lindsey:Hey, connecting is what we love to.
Sam Bauman:Do all the time. That was Sarah, Lindsay and Adam Steinbach of asYouAreTherapyFinal Are Therapy. You can find them on their website@asurtherapymn.com and on Instagram @asurtherapymn. If you want to attend their next Therapy on Tap event, it's coming up on September 28th from 1 to 4pm at Budapels Brewing. Thank you so much for listening. Make sure you check out our season one episodes if you haven't yet, and tune in next week for another new story. Have a good one.
