Discussion: Small Business Matters

In this special episode of Not So Small, host Sam Bauman is joined by colleagues Adam Rondeau and Andy Bauman for a conversation about why small businesses matter and what we all stand to gain (or lose) by the choices we make as consumers.

They explore the fundamental differences between small and large businesses, from the natural accountability that comes with small business ownership to the way local businesses drive innovation by solving problems big corporations overlook. The conversation digs into some of the economics and addresses the real pressures consumers face around convenience, price, and time.

Throughout the episode, practical suggestions emerge for how to support small businesses: leaving Google and Yelp reviews, signing up for newsletters and loyalty programs, attending local events, talking about businesses you love, and being curious about new shops in your neighborhood.

This episode is both a case for why small businesses matter and a practical guide for how to use your purchasing power to strengthen your community and create the kind of neighborhood you actually want to live in.

Host & Show Info

• Host Name: Sam Bauman (she/her)
• About the Host: Sam is the President of Mellowlark Labs, a Twin Cities-based small business consulting agency. She has a masters degree in counseling psychology, a field she worked in for several years before applying her skills in business, and is certified in Organization Development.

Podcast Website

Sound Editing By: Adam Rondeau
Podcast Art By: Andy Bauman (website)

Transcript

Sam Bauman: 0:09

Hey, everyone, and welcome to a special episode of not so SmallBusinessMattersFinal. I'm Sam Bauman, president of Mellow Lark. Labs and your host. You know, when we started this podcast, we knew we wanted to share the stories of small business owners. Their passion, their innovation, the problems are solving in their communities. We're living in a moment where it's easier than ever to click a button and have anything we need delivered to our door at a really low price. And no judgment. I do my fair share of online shopping, but while that convenience is real and valuable in some ways, as we've been having these conversations, it has become clear to us that something really important is getting lost. We're losing those relationships with the people. Who run the businesses in our neighborhoods, the sense that our purchasing decisions have power, the power to keep money circulating locally, to support innovation, and to shape our communities in really amazing ways. So today I am joined by my colleagues Adam Rondo andy Bauman for a conversation about why small businesses matter and what we get by supporting them and what we lose when we don't support them. We're going to talk about values, economics class, community, and what each of us can do even when we're facing real constraints like time and money. Now, a little context before we jump in. We're talking about the roughly 33 million small businesses in the U.S. this is officially defined as businesses with 500 or fewer employees. Though most are much smaller. About half are just a single person. These businesses employ nearly half of American workers, and they make up 99.9% of all US companies. More importantly, they're often owned by people who live in the same communities that they serve, which has a huge impact on how they operate and what they prioritize. In the conversation you're about to hear, we dig into all of this. The emotional and economic reasons small businesses matter and the practical ways that you can support them. Enjoy the episode.

Andy Bauman: 2:12

And with those small businesses, you might know the owner, you might have a relationship with them or see them in the store, you know, or engage with them just through, you know, interacting with that business, which obviously with a, a large company, you know, we don't really, we don't know who the owners are or they're very, they're abstract to us in a way that with small businesses it feels more concrete. You know, that's an individual that lives in our community.

Adam Rondeau: 2:49

Yeah. And what incentive does, you know, a C level executive at a large business have to, like, care about some of the things that we want people caring about in our communities, you know, they have to, like, sort of, in some ways, we have to sort of artificially create them. Right. Like, and that's where there's like a big push. And sort of supporting businesses that align with your values has become a more apparent thing. But, like, that's our way of trying to make it clear, you know. Okay, I'll just use Philips again, because they seem pretty agnostic in terms of my understanding of their political standing. But they, like, we are saying we like it when you donate to this cause. So then we need to convince them to care about a cause. But a local business owner walks down the street and sees that the sidewalk is in sort of disrepair, and they're going to be like, yeah, I like, let's. I'm on a vote. Yes on that tax levy that's going to get our sidewalks repaired. Or, you know, I want the students that are going to my schools in the community that I live in to be successful, because if they are, then, you know, to put it just into, like, practical sense, I will more likely have people that are going to shop at my business around my, around me. I will have a better pool of employees and just my community is a better place to be in. So, like, it's. There's like a natural incentive built in when you are invested in the community.

Sam Bauman: 4:27

I heard you use this word values. What are some of the values or the trends in values that we see among small business owners?

Andy Bauman: 4:40

Yeah, well, I think the biggest one that we've sort of scratched at, you know, in this conversation is community. I think that's just a. A big part of what it means to be a small business or to be a successful one or, you know, an effective one, is you're a part of the community and, you know, provide a, a benefit to the community by being there. And, you know. Yeah, I. Not sure what else.

Sam Bauman: 5:16

Well, something that I've thought about with relation to community that I think is really unique to small businesses is the idea that often in a small business, that owner is physically present in the space. And so when we think about community and how we build community, you know, you have to be connected to that community in order to be a part of it and help cultivate it in the ways that you want to. And I think that is something that as a corporation gets bigger, that owner becomes maybe a little bit more of a figurehead or disconnected from, you know, the people that are being impacted, the stakeholders of that business.

Adam Rondeau: 5:57

Sure.

Andy Bauman: 5:58

So there's a difference when a. A business Owner is interacting with customers themselves or is closer to that. They just have that touch point and are able to be more responsive to the needs of those customers. Just having that awareness, it maintains more.

Sam Bauman: 6:22

Of a dialogue between the customers, the employees, and the owner. And I think that dialogue is really crucial, not just for responsiveness and in products and services, but in creating and maintaining relationships and promoting empathy, which is so important when we think about community.

Adam Rondeau: 6:43

Yeah. And diversity of thinking. Right. I mean, when we, you know, think about. Of course, in my. In getting my sociology degree, we end up reading Bowling Alone, which is all about, like, the dying of bowling. Well, it's not all about, but it uses the fact that there's like, a diminishing amount of bowling leagues and participation in those bowling leagues and how that's led to more divide in thinking in our country. And, you know, this is sort of that same thing on a micro scale. Right. Like, as these people are all interacting with things more, they're also looking at it from a different perspective. Right. The business owner is thinking about, you know, their family and their business, and the person who's an employee is thinking about the same things, but from a different perspective. They don't have the overhead of the business, but they maybe aren't making as much money as the business owner. And when you have all of those people talking to one another, it's easy to maintain that empathetic lens that you're talking about. And it probably ultimately leads to also, more just like, innovation in the ways that we shape these things that we still don't know what. Like, first of all, there will never be a perfect way to run a business, but we also just, like, are going to learn more about what makes sense for that business if all of the stakeholders are more regularly interacting with one another.

Sam Bauman: 8:13

I think there's something really fundamentally human in what we're talking about. I'm also thinking back to my college education, and, you know, we read the Stanley Milgram studies, and you see it there in a really kind of primal way. The closer that those test subjects were to the perceived damage that they were causing, the harder it was for them to continue. Right. So that same basic principle is at play when you're part of a small business. You're seeing the impacts of the decisions that you're making. You're not just kind of closed away somewhere else. And it. And it feels more real and less abstract.

Adam Rondeau: 8:54

Yeah, yeah. And from, like.

Andy Bauman: 8:59

Yeah, well, so what other. What other values do you both see in or that small businesses represent or tend to Embody.

Adam Rondeau: 9:11

I mean, I think that a lot of people get into small business because, and this is one of the questions that we ask every episode of the podcast, you know, what problem did you set out to solve? And I think that small businesses are playing a big role innovation in our world. And that's usually because, you know, our very first guest, Mariah Hamm, went to buy a house and then felt like there was not an option to have a realtor who made them feel seen in that space or you know, totally like understood in that space. So they were like, well this sucks. And adore eventually prevented it prevent presented itself to Mariah and she was like, oh my gosh, I could be that thing for people. And, and then went and started that business. So I think a lot of small businesses sort of value or have a value based. Maybe it's harder to sort of broadly say what that value is, but it's usually them recognizing that the one size fits all model that the larger companies take on for economic reasons doesn't make sense for everyone. So, or is blind to something. So they're saying, oh, we need this, we need better care for moms after the baby is born. Fourth trimester Doc is born. Right. And so it's, I think innovation and solving our community's problems is a big value that they have. Sure.

Andy Bauman: 10:47

So their small businesses are able to identify, you know, underserved niches or you know, markets or communities and able to fill those, you know, more easily, more readily than big, big, big businesses that maybe are intentionally not serving those because they don't see the dollar signs there.

Adam Rondeau: 11:14

Yeah. And big business, I mean we've worked with both highly agile small businesses and not so agile medium sized businesses in our day to day work. And we know that once that ship reaches a certain size, it's a heck of a lot harder to turn. Right. So we can be talking to a business owner of a medium sized business and say we can make all of these things better. And they'll say, wow, this seems great, but no thanks. Because I feel like it would take us so long to accomplish that change and I don't know what it's like. And this other stuff is more comfortable. I know this. Right. So you know, when you're thinking about small businesses and the roles that they play and where that value comes from, it's that agility leads to a lot of opportunity for innovation and it's sort of created by the thinking that exists in, sort of in those corporate worlds.

Sam Bauman: 12:13

I think that the Seed of that innovation comes from what you were saying about, you know, why many small business owners start their businesses. Because another thing that we hear a lot from the people that we talk to is I wasn't happy where I was. Right. So they've identified a gap or a need, and also because it's having that impact on them. So personally, they're bringing that into their business. And, you know, all of the businesses that we interview have embodied that in such a powerful and impactful way. And I think that just is one of the things that's driving the. The motivation behind some of the innovation that we see.

Adam Rondeau: 12:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think community and innovation are two values that tend to exist, like, pretty consistently in small business owners, at least, I guess most of the ones that we care about. I'm sure there's a small business out there that's like, in that category technically, and is. Wants nothing but to become, you know, the next Walmart or whatever.

Andy Bauman: 13:24

Sure. But as we, you know, heard in. In, you know, the conversations in this podcast, these business owners, the people who we spoke to, a lot of their. Their drive to innovate and to serve their community comes from a real sense of passion. You know, I would identify that as another value, you know, of small businesses. You know, these business owners told, you know, their stories of. Of really pushing through a lot of adversity, putting a lot on the line personally financially, those types of things. And really, I think it sounds like they just felt, you know, compelled to. To really try and pursue this, which, you know, sometimes whether that's, you know, good to go cups, where it's. They're. They're really passionate about sustainability or, you know, whatever the case is, it really comes from a place of really deeply caring about the product or the service that they're providing and what that can offer to the community.

Sam Bauman: 14:41

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 14:42

And I think what's been fascinating in the conversations that we've had related to that is the diversity of, like, sort of how that passion looks as it becomes successful. So, like, we talked to Drop Dead Gorgeous. No, actually, let me restate that. We talked to. I mean, we did talk to Drop Dead Gorgeous, but we. We talked to Nail Ninja, and we talked to Launa Bread, and both of them have started to get questions about why aren't you growing more?

Sam Bauman: 15:17

Nail Ninja actually expanded and then decided to downsize.

Adam Rondeau: 15:21

Right. And for those businesses, that passion came from a place of, like, I mean, they're making. They're doing analysis, cost benefit, and they're saying, what do I get from doing the work that I've started doing and what does it cost for that thing to grow? And both of those people have said, as soon as I grow, this stops being the thing that I care about in the way that I've cared about it, or it feels like more work than it's worth, you know, so they're finding that balance now. Someone like, you know, good to go Cups or fourth trimester Doc, they themselves may not want to explicitly grow, although I would say good to go Cups does, because their passion is solving a global problem. Right. They want this thing that they've created to grow beyond just the space. And they already have. They've got things all around the country and they're growing, especially in Denver. But like, that passion looks different. And I think something that we end up talking a lot about just in amongst all of us is the concept of growth within small business. And we tend to sort of like love finding the stories where people are deciding to not grow in a financial or in like a size way, but are growing in other ways.

Sam Bauman: 16:39

But I think that comes from our love for kind of questioning the basic assumptions that we hold that influence our behavior and our choices. And I think that one of the basic assumptions that's really pervasive in our culture is that we more is better and bigger is better. And when we think about what more means in business, it's almost always money. Right. And I think that what I love about these small businesses is that they're rejecting that basic assumption and they're saying, what do I want more of? I want more connection, I want more contentment, I want more meaning and I want more community. And that's a much more fulfilling way to answer that question. And a better, in my opinion, a better basic assumption to hold as you're thinking about making choices for your business.

Adam Rondeau: 17:35

Yeah, yeah. And for just to put one more at the end of that for someone like good to go who has sort of this like a mission. A mission. It's. We want more of this out in the world.

Sam Bauman: 17:49

More positive impact.

Adam Rondeau: 17:50

Yeah, more positive impact. And I think, you know, so I only, I guess mention that because sometimes we'll sort of talk about it like the best version of growth is not the one that's focused on becoming bigger. But there are certainly cases where it's really. We just think that it's unique to each business, what makes sense for what success looks like.

Sam Bauman: 18:12

I mean, there's a reason why we talk about doing values based consulting when we work with a business. We want to Understand their values and their goals, and that's going to be unique to that business and the people that make it up. And sometimes that means growth, sometimes that does mean financial growth. You have to keep the doors open, you have to keep making money. And often it also means these other things. Yeah, can we actually go back to the economics a little bit? Because I also think it's worth saying that, you know, money is a part of this and it's an important part and it can't be completely ignored. And yet there are lots of small businesses that are doing this in a financially sustainable way and in a really positive way. So let's talk a little bit more about what some of those financial and economic elements of small business are.

Adam Rondeau: 19:10

Yeah, I think that one thing that probably stands as like the topic when it comes to the economics of small businesses and why they matter to us is the local multiplier effect. And it's basically just the idea that the money that you spend at a local small business is much more likely to re enter your local economy. And there's been several studies with varying results. But generally speaking, it's something like 50% of every dollar that you spend at a local business goes back into your local economy, Whereas closer to 13, 14% of a dollar spent at a big box store or whatever goes back into the local community. And, you know, that feels sort of abstract. So, like, what does that really mean? Well, you know, if 50% of a dollar goes back into your economy, your local economy, you know, I spend money at a coffee shop. That coffee shop person turns around and spends that money at a local bakery. That local bakery pays a local farmer. Right now, my dollar, my money has helped four different people in my community before it's left community. Maybe because that farmer has to buy their equipment from some national brand or whatever. And so now four different people in my community got something they needed to live their lives before the money left that space. And whereas, like, you know, sort of in an example that I made earlier, but we buy something from a large company, the money goes to the people that live in other places. Those communities are obviously then supported by that thing, but ours isn't. And that means that in some way we're giving more power to people that don't know our communities as well or don't live here. They're not paying our taxes. In Minnesota, we're very lucky, I think, that our taxes are a little higher than some other places. That's why we have so many good parks. That's why our sidewalks are nice. That's.

Sam Bauman: 21:27

That's also why it's always winter or construction season. But it's worth it.

Adam Rondeau: 21:31

Oh, yeah. And so I just think that it's sort of a really, like, helpful thing to remember that when you even look at it through the lens of like an academic study, you see that money does stay in communities more when you shop local. So that's something to keep in mind. And in my research around that local multiplier effect, I found a few economists who had done some modeling and determined that if spending at local vendors goes up 10%, it leads to X more jobs. So one of the particular examples that they had done was in, they sort of applied the model to a part of Michigan and they found if 10% more of the like expenses, 10% more purchases were made at local businesses in this part of Michigan, that like 1500 more jobs would enter that market and their tax revenue would increase by 14 million or something. And it's like, that's not a small amount of impact for a 10% increase of spending.

Sam Bauman: 22:47

So it's a couple things. I mean, it's making me think about what we talked about earlier about just sort of anonymity versus intimacy or connectedness. Right. So it feels better to us to have more of a say in what happens to us. And if we're keeping our dollars more local, that's a way of having more of a say in, you know, what our lives are like. But there's another piece of it too, that I want to highlight, which is, you know, I am all for supporting communities everywhere, but that's not always what's happening when we spend our dollars at big businesses. What's happening is that those funds or that money is getting consolidated into a few key individuals or key businesses. And it's not actually getting spread or passed along, it's getting put in a bank somewhere.

Adam Rondeau: 23:39

Yeah, right. I mean, what you're, you know, the best example of the failure of. Well, the best example of the thing you're talking about is the failure of voodoo economics, which was the trickle down idea and being like, oh, if we just keep, you know, if these businesses make more money, it'll trickle down. And it drove the US Into a recession. There's a lot of evidence of that. Ben Stein, who is notably conservative, has said that himself about that whole economic plan. So it just draws out the impact of, you know, that money becoming consolidated by those big businesses.

Andy Bauman: 24:23

Yeah, it's interesting, I think, that, you know, just sort of examining what are the factors or pressures that cause, that lead consumers to, you know, spend their money at, you know, some of these big businesses or national chains or you know, the ways of spending our money that don't stay in our community. I think there are a lot of pressures. You know, oftentimes, you know, we think of say Amazon, which can now offer, you know, lower prices and convenience and these sort of dangle these carrots in front of consumers and it's easy for us as consumers to kind of, you know, just make that decision based on that immediate right, that immediate cost benefit analysis. Like well, the price tag is lower and I, I don't have to do any work to know, just click this button and make this online order. But as we can see if we look out, if we zoom out a little bit, we, there really is like a greater benefit if we do collectively start to, you know, shift our spending habits, really value these local businesses, these small businesses that are reinvesting or you know, in our community where the money isn't just sort of abstractly exiting our community and you know, doesn't ever serve a collective benefit.

Sam Bauman: 26:15

I think, I think what you're talking about is social responsibility and it's a concept that we've heard talked about with regards to business owners and some of the ways that were discussing earlier, you know, making values based decisions, thinking about the impact of your business choices on your stakeholders, but it also absolutely applies to consumers and you know, for better or for worse, when it comes to who we're giving our money to, we have to make choices that represent our values and we all have to agree to do it and trust that each other is going to do it. In order for it to really have the impacts that we're looking for it to have or to shift some of the cultural norms that we're seeing with regards to consumption.

Andy Bauman: 27:09

Absolutely. And I think that it can be easy to see ourselves like as an individual consumer as sort of lacking power within a large system. We are individually a small, a very small piece of that. But there is a way in which we have a great deal of power. Where we spend our money ultimately does impact how businesses, whether they're small businesses or big businesses, have to respond to us. We can continue to, you know, kind of take the easiest option, but I think we've kind of over the last few decades seen how that plays out. And I think, you know, we all sort of plug our nose or you know, as we like shop at some of these big places that we know kind of have a harmful impact, whether it's environmentally or socially, but we do it because they offer the lowest price and that's just sort of a zero sum game where eventually we all lose. But the more that we, you know, take control over where we spend our money, I think it really, it can be empowering to see ourselves as actually we have the power, the ability to kind of shape these businesses and how they behave.

Adam Rondeau: 28:59

Yeah. I mean, I think that I don't have any data to back this up, but I would guess that the money that we save by shopping at some of these more convenient places, ultimately we pay for in a different way. Right. If money is leaking out of our local economy because we're shopping at these big box places, you know, we might save. And that's where you're sort of saying we end up losing in the long run anyway. But if we might save $5 on that thing that one time, I bet that in a way we lost the $5 we saved also by making that purchase or our community did or whatever. And I'd be curious to look into seeing if anybody has sort of like done a comparative analysis of that sort of thing. But I bet there's something there.

Sam Bauman: 29:49

I think anecdotally you're also often sacrificing quality. If I think about some of the things I've purchased online from big box stores, they don't last. And then the next year I have to buy, you know, our kids, we gotta buy new backpacks for them every year because they're falling apart. And that I think happens a little bit more at some of those bigger businesses.

Andy Bauman: 30:13

Yeah. And you know, I think. Right. They are responding to us in the sense that we are often making that immediate choice, like, well, I'd rather, you know, spend half as much now. It's just harder, it's a bit more abstract to, you know, make the next steps and, and see the negative impact of having to pay for that again the next year and the next year, you know, what we see first and foremost is like our bank account right now. And so, you know, I think that part of what we want to do here with the not so SmallBusinessMattersFinal podcast is help reshape people's perspectives, our own perspectives around our spending habits and you know, the value of the businesses that we spend our money at.

Sam Bauman: 31:20

Yeah, I mean, the other side of looking at your bank account now is, of course, the practices that you have around making purchases. Going back to the backpack thing, it is absolutely the norm for many people in our country to buy a new backpack for their children every year just because it's back to school shopping time, not because their backpack is falling apart. So if we are always wanting new and different fad objects, then we don't care whether they're lasting more than a year because we don't want to keep them around.

Adam Rondeau: 31:55

Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, we think about this a lot in the work that we do. I know I've said that phrase a few times now, but if I'm sort of comparing small examples to big examples, you know, we think about things like what does this process incentivize for its. For the people interacting with it? What are the signals that we're having it send to them in terms of the importance of putting in the information correctly or whatever. And when you look at the things that incentivize certain behaviors from, for like a large or corporation or really like capitalism as a whole, it's incentivizing some of the stuff that we're talking about being bad. Right. And so what's interesting about the small business component of this is that they don't have some of the advantages that big businesses have that allow big businesses to take advantage of the capitalist system that we have in place. And so how, what, you know, what is the sling that they have? As David to the Goliath, it's. It's challenging certain things that those businesses are doing. How do I, as someone who makes a backpack, as a small business, compete with the big business? I make a backpack that lasts, and then as it lasts, people go, dang, those backpacks are great. They last forever. I'm going to shop, buy my backpacks there. And now they're going, oh, good, I'm winning business.

Sam Bauman: 33:29

Yes.

Adam Rondeau: 33:30

And so, you know, another reason to choose the, you know, thing that costs more but is local, is owned by a small business owner, is that there. You have to think about their incentives. Their incentives are to impress you. If they do not have a loud. If they're not like a known entity, they want to win your business. Those big, you know, I got my car towed at a McDonald's once for reasons that I should not have. And when I said emailed them and I said, I just now I have a $200 bill, the owner of that McDonald's is like, I don't care, because they're not Thinking, oh, if we lose that one person's business because he's mad at us, whatever. That's like a burger, you know, once a month or something at that. That was when I was living at the U of M. So a burger once a month was probably pretty accurate. But the, but the. But, like, they don't have to listen to us. They don't care about losing us. The stakes are higher for these small business owners, and because of that, they don't get to trick us as much as these big companies do.

Sam Bauman: 34:41

I think when we talk about social responsibility, as a consumer, we're doing the same thing that a business owner is when they make the choice to provide a quality product. And I think that both of those actions are basically loosening or weakening the hold that those bigger businesses have on us and what we can choose and how we can live our lives. Right. Because I think that what a lot of people feel is that, and if all you have available to you is poor quality backpacks that fall apart after a year, then you don't have the choice to keep the same backpack for many years. And so for using this backpack metaphor, us as socially responsible consumers, we get to go looking for quality products and choose to stick with the same backpack for a few years. And small business owners have the opportunity to stand out by providing a backpack that's going to last.

Adam Rondeau: 35:40

I think it's important in this conversation to not forget to mention our privilege in being able to have the time to think about those things.

Sam Bauman: 35:49

Absolutely.

Adam Rondeau: 35:50

To have the money to make the decisions that we're talking about. Undeniably, there is that. And in some ways it means that we as people with privilege, probably have a greater responsibility in making those decisions, which is getting back to then. Something that I said earlier that I think is so impactful is these people did these models saying, if only 10% of your expenses changed from big box stores to local businesses, it has a huge effect. I mean, the other one that they brought up was they had done a study on British Columbia, which is a whole province. So obviously the scale is going to feel bigger. But if 10% consumer shift to independent businesses happened, it would create In British Columbia, 14,000 more jobs and $4.3 billion more into that economy. It's like, obviously bigger area, so the numbers sound more impressive. But again, if we as individuals and anyone that ends up listening to this podcast makes a decision to go, okay, one out of every ten purchases I make this month, I'm going to make sure it happens at a local business. The More people do that, suddenly we're having more jobs, our community feels healthier. We're starting to solve some of the inequality and the problems that come with it because there's more money to go around.

Sam Bauman: 37:18

And it's worth noting that we are not saying that big businesses don't have a place. Oh, sure, they absolutely do. And you know, there are a lot of things that big businesses can do that smaller businesses can't when it comes to making things more affordable. And you can do that ethically. Right. Or pooling resources to achieve some bigger feat, whether that's research endeavors or something like that. So I think that really what we're talking about is just having choice, a healthier balance and a healthier balance as a consumer.

Andy Bauman: 37:58

So big businesses could kind of, you know, afford to have an R&D department where they're, you know, tackling some long term problems in ways that small businesses don't have that kind of, you know, capital to play that kind of long game. So certainly there are many ways in which big businesses provide a lot of value.

Adam Rondeau: 38:29

Yeah, I think that what's, you know, they, certain businesses that are bigger will certainly invest in like research and development. They're still going to carry with them the incentives of things like, you know, my mother's a dietitian, so I've learned a lot about this. But you know, using a food business as an example, Cheetos are specifically designed to trick certain parts of our brain so that like, you know, over the years through evolution, we have learned that our bodies are feeling full of food when a certain feeling happens in our mouth. Cheetos are designed to not trigger that response so that we want to keep eating them. So they might be doing research and development, but they also might be doing it for the wrong reasons. Where I do think that some of the things that big businesses end up bringing to the picture, the bigger picture and helping us all out is, you know, there are more efficient ways to do things. Right. Those big businesses are inspired to find the most efficient way to fill cans with beer and distribute those cans of beer or whatever. Right? They are, because their bottom line benefits from it. And if that technology is developed, eventually that technology will become available on a smaller scale and it will benefit more people. And so, you know, that's part of the like life cycle of the, or, you know, the tug of war that exists between the two sort of entities that were calling out as like sort of being diametrically opposed. They, they benefit one another in certain ways and then obviously in other ways, like they are harmful to one another. But, you know, we just want. I. I just want a more healthy balance. And when money is being consolidated the way that you mentioned earlier into, like, very few wealthy people who are probably spending most of their money at the same places over and over again and not paying taxes and all that stuff, you know, then clearly there's a burning house. We need to go put that fire out before, you know, we can be like, all right, big businesses, go do what you're good at, while we keep supporting these local businesses that are good at what they're good at.

Sam Bauman: 40:46

I want to bring us back to social responsibility because I didn't want to leave it there. I think we talked about it's important for us to make these choices that are ultimately maybe less convenient for us, but the other side of that is, again, the benefits that we get from engaging with small businesses. So, you know, we've talked a little bit about sort of the macro benefits, the economic benefits and social benefits, but I think there are also a lot of really personal benefits. You know, we just did an interview with a local art studio, and I don't know if the episode will be out yet when we air this one, so I'm not going to say.

Adam Rondeau: 41:27

I didn't say the name.

Sam Bauman: 41:28

So we just interviewed Curiosity Student Studio, and one of the things that Lauren, the owner, talked about is that she really wants her art studio to be a third space for people. So, you know, as a person with anthropology background, I am familiar with this concept of spaces versus places and. Oh, shit, I forgot which one's which. Let's start that over.

Andy Bauman: 41:54

Space is more generic.

Sam Bauman: 41:55

Yeah, thank you so much. As a person with anthropology background, I was thinking about this concept of spaces versus places, where a space is a physical location. It's just sort of the logistical details of where you are and a place is a physical space, plus meaning, culture, and all of these other things. And I think that in a way that big businesses probably struggle to, small businesses have the ability to create really powerful places for people. And in our current culture, where, you know, so much of our community either exists online or, you know, we don't have the same kind of gatherings that we used to. I think that small businesses are a place for creating places.

Adam Rondeau: 42:51

Yeah. And. And, you know, and they're incentivized to do that. Right. Like it benefits them. I love win situations. Right. So, like, creating more of those opportunities for community to come together also means that more people are engaged with your business. And so it's like, man, isn't that great? Like, the community is getting more community. This business is becoming more, like, apparent in this community. Everyone benefits.

Andy Bauman: 43:20

Everyone totally well. And I think, you know, we probably all can think of certain local small businesses that we've interacted with in our. In our lives that feel kind of like a local institution. Like, if you. If you spend time in Minneapolis or in the Twin Cities, like, you're gonna know about these places. There's, like, culture built up around them, you know, traditions or, you know, lore or just, you know, so many people that rely on those places day in and day out. And if they were to disappear, you. You would feel like, oh, a piece of the culture of this city is gone. And I think that's. That's something that local small businesses can do in a way that, you know, big national places can't. Again, it's the. The ability to be responsive to. To be present in that, you know, where the owner or, you know, the operators are present in that physical space. They live in that community, and they're able to interact with customers and respond and engage with them.

Sam Bauman: 44:31

I'm thinking about this concept of being a regular. And I don't know, maybe this is just me, but in my mind, it's sort of like a romantic. Right. Like, you kind of like the idea of being a regular at a place.

Andy Bauman: 44:42

Cheers.

Sam Bauman: 44:43

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 44:44

A whole TV show theme song based on the idea.

Sam Bauman: 44:46

Right.

Andy Bauman: 44:47

Everyone knows your name, and I think.

Sam Bauman: 44:49

That is what we're talking about. And it wouldn't be a mellow art conversation if we didn't come to this idea of belonging. I think belonging is just absolutely fundamental to, like, our happiness and contentment as human beings. And it sounds really grand to say, but I think that, you know, a coffee shop or an art studio or, you know, a nail salon that is tuned into the people that it's serving can elicit that feeling of belonging in its customers. And that is priceless.

Adam Rondeau: 45:24

Yeah. I mean, even if you do, like, a little thought experiment right now in your own head, and you think about what. What it would mean, what was your. What would your feeling be if the Jimmy John's close to your house closed? You'd be like, dang, who cares? That was an inconvenient. Or that was a convenient way for me to get food that's pretty tasty at a reasonable price, but not one part of you goes, oh, no, something wrong with our community or feels like emotional sadness, probably.

Sam Bauman: 45:51

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 45:51

But then you think about a business that you've loved for A long time just in, was it. The Heights Bakery is closing, not because they were struggling, but because there was no one to take up the helm, and they're ready to retire. You know, when you think about that didn't directly impact me because I have only recently moved to the area, and I hadn't developed a relationship with that place yet. But Cosmic Coffee just down the road, gets their buns from there. And now a sandwich that I love there is not available. And I feel sad about that thing. I worry about our community losing an institution. It feels like a different kind of loss, and that has to tell us something. Our intuition is something that has been honed through, you know, all of the time that humans have existed. Why are we grossed out by a spider? Because they used to kill us, you know, more regularly. And same with snakes or whatever. So we develop these innate feelings because they signal something to us. And a part of our local community disappearing feels like a threat.

Andy Bauman: 47:09

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've. All over the past. I mean, I'm sure this. This trend is something that people have noticed for. For decades and decades, you know, who knows how long? But we can all remember those, you know, the local area, local places, the mom and pop shops that have closed down over the years. And a lot of times, you know, sure, there are. There are, you know, occasionally stories where it's a bit more organic, where, well, the business kind of ran its course. The people are ready to retire. No one to, you know, fill those shoes. But I think more often the story is they had to. They went out of business due to economic pressures, you know, typically from big businesses, big box stores, chains moving into the neighborhood. And those chains have a greater ability to kind of apply that pressure, whether it's an ability to lose money for a while, to wait out your competition, you know, to undercut their prices, knowing for a while you won't make your money back. But once there aren't any, that once the competition goes away.

Adam Rondeau: 48:43

Yeah.

Andy Bauman: 48:44

Then, you know, you are able to raise your prices and basically, you know, put those. Put those local institutions out of business.

Adam Rondeau: 48:55

Yeah.

Andy Bauman: 48:55

And I think that's, you know, a shame. We get fewer options as consumers, you know, when there's a dozen different sandwich shops with a different, you know, shtick. Yeah, different. A different identity, a different specialty, you know, maybe different types of cuisine that suddenly we're gone and we've just got, you know, our Subways and our Jimmy John's or, you know, for instance, I was thinking about, say, like, bookstores. Bookstores are Something that have largely gone away. You know, at least in the Twin Cities, there still are a number of them. And I think about, you know, the benefit that they bring to us. Bring to book lovers. There are bookstores that, you know, many of them are going to sell books by local authors or there's different, you know, they have different identities where some of them are crime and thriller, specialty stores or romance, you know, and we get all of these different choices as consumers as opposed to just, you know, getting your one choice that's a national chain.

Adam Rondeau: 50:17

Yeah. And when you have a business owner who has an all romance bookstore, you walk in the door. Anyone that works there probably works there because they also want love romance novels, and they're gonna have some opinions that they can share with you. And that sort of like expertise is priceless when yourself are looking for something in that regard. Earlier you were talking about the fall off of businesses, and I wanted to bring up one stat that I came across from the Bureau of Labor.

Sam Bauman: 50:52

Statistics.

Adam Rondeau: 50:53

Statistics. Yeah, yeah, the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And as far as like fall off of small businesses go, the numbers are as of 20, 24, 20.4% of businesses fail in their first year, 49.4% fail within the first five years, and then 65.3% within 10 years. So like, when you talk about the pressures of it, I mean, you have to go a long way down the line as a small business before you get to start feeling secure. And then adding to that, the number one cause of that fall off, according again to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, is actually market demand at 42% within 38% being like a cash flow problem. So some of that is like just the grind of the machine that makes our world go round. You have an idea, you think that idea is going to serve some part of the market that has not been served yet. It turns out that there isn't that much desire for that particular lens. And so that fades away. But you know, it's so important for small businesses, local businesses, to get people investing in them early so that cash flow doesn't become a problem, so that they do become an institution. Right. So they do become Matt's Bar. That they do become, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to think of another one. There definitely are others, but I'm just completely drawing a blank. Ingebretsons?

Andy Bauman: 52:31

Sure. Yeah. I think that's a critical value that small businesses and the owners provide is. Yeah. Not every small business is going to. Is gonna make it but the more, you know, rolls of the die, it's, that's feeding innovation.

Adam Rondeau: 52:59

Absolutely.

Andy Bauman: 53:00

You know, it's as a movie lover, you know, we've seen how movie studios have moved more and more into these big huge budget, hundreds of millions of dollars budgeted movies and fewer small budget, mid budget movies. And you know those big ones, they have to succeed for them and so they're going to try and make them appeal to the largest audience. But then we're, we don't get the niche stories or you know, things that really give us that variety.

Adam Rondeau: 53:45

Afraid to take a chance.

Andy Bauman: 53:46

Exactly. And some of those small budget movies turn into you know, hundred million dollar box office hits. And the same pattern can be true for businesses. You know, the more seeds of businesses get planted, the more people try and cultivate them. Yes. Not everyone is gonna grow into a crop that is worth harvesting. But we won't know until these people, these business owners go out and try and really give it their all to solve a problem.

Adam Rondeau: 54:28

Well, and I think that made me think of another statistic that I came across related specifically using patents or filings for patents as a metric to compare how much innovation small businesses create. And I was surprised to see this. But According to a 2016 analysis, businesses with one to four employees, so we're really small businesses, accounted for 10% of all patents that were filed in 2016. So and then sort of along those same lines from sort of the same analysis from the SmallBusinessMattersFinal Business Administration, the amount of patent citations per million dollar per million R&D dollar spent, the ratio is 1.75 patent citations per million research dollars spent by a small business vs 0.34 for older larger businesses. So like even though some of these big businesses are maybe doing research, it's probably not, it's not leading to.

Sam Bauman: 55:44

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 55:45

And so I just, you know, they don't like in a way small businesses livelihood is staked on them innovating. The same way that an independent film, if it does not bring something new to the conversation, why do we, why do we care about it? Why do we invest our time in it? We already know that the Marvel Cinematic Universe is going to give us something that's will make us happily chew some popcorn, drink some pop and like walk away going yeah, I was entertained, you know, but the little ones, those independent films are the ones that make us go whoa there are a couple.

Sam Bauman: 56:26

Of things that the two of you were saying that I just feel like pulling on A little bit. And I don't remember exactly what you said, Adam, but, Andy, you paraphrased it by saying a business made it or didn't make it. Oh, you were talking about statistics related to, like, when a business fails. And I kind of want to take a minute to just kind of think about the language that we're using, even in that part of the conversation, because, you know, I take your point that most of the reasons for ending a business were not necessarily in the business owner's control, according to the study that you cited. And yet is the goal to exist perpetually, or can we reframe how we think about that? And again, just sort of take out, like, is that another kind of perpetual growth mindset that isn't valuable?

Adam Rondeau: 57:23

Yeah, I mean, I think that certainly the business shuttering its doors does not mean that it did not have an impact. And I think that's a good point to. To bring up. I. There are big, successful companies that were born out of what would be considered failures by that standard.

Andy Bauman: 57:44

I'm sure. I'm sure that many business owners didn't, quote, unquote, succeed their first go around. You know, how many businesses that, you know, whatever. Whatever word you want to use, you know, that we're saying failed in quotes, you know, that's a testing ground, a breeding ground for ideas and innovation. And even if it doesn't materialize into, you know, huge profits or whatever, there's so much learning that happens. And I think you're right, Sam, to. To point out that there's so much more value besides just, you know, the. The money that is made. It's humans experiences, you know, getting to try things, getting to fail.

Sam Bauman: 58:50

And as a person that has a thousand different interests and hobbies, you know, I think the concept of success being you find a thing and you do it until you retire is daunting and kind of a.

Andy Bauman: 59:02

Kind of a myth. I mean, yeah, it doesn't really exist in the way that. That we're led to believe.

Sam Bauman: 59:08

And I just. Maybe that feels a little empowering to somebody who's thinking about running a small business or who currently is. You know, like, if you're making a positive impact on your community, if you are clear on your values and you are acting in accordance with those values, you are succeeding.

Adam Rondeau: 59:26

Yeah.

Sam Bauman: 59:27

That is success.

Adam Rondeau: 59:28

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, if anything, bringing up those numbers, to me more. Has more to do with wanting people to be supportive of new businesses when they pop up, go check it out sooner so that they have the better chance of continuing to serve their community. So that if, you know, their interests change or the needs of their consumers change, they can change. Because you want the reason that a.

Sam Bauman: 59:58

Business closes to be they wanted to go try something else that they couldn't afford to keep doing it.

Adam Rondeau: 1:00:04

Right. Exactly. And you know, I think that small business owners are some of the most intentional thinkers and that is what leads to some of the best feelings that we get when we go to a place. You know, we are all lovers of the book the Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. And the businesses that really stand out to us are, tend to be the businesses that are thinking through a lot of the principles that she demonstrates in that book. And they also happen to be a lot of small businesses because they are really invested in the thing that they're doing. You know, you walk into Launa Bread and it feels like the people that work there are the ones that made that space, as opposed to, you know, I'll beat up on Walmart because why not? But you walk into there and it's like I'm inside of this like fluorescent air conditioned space that's just like designed to make me like go full zombie mode. And I don't like that. What, why, what is their intention of their space? It's to get me to spend more money and not make me feel like, oh, this is where I'm supposed to be. Right.

Andy Bauman: 1:01:20

Well, and another example is Starbucks, where, you know, I don't know how widespread this is, but I remember hearing about Starbucks locations that were removing all of their chairs and tables. You know, we think of a coffee shop as a gathering place, like you mentioned, Sam, a third space, you know, which is a space where people can go and spend a long time without needing to spend additional money to just hang out, build community, things like that. And yet you have, you know, this national chain that, you know, basically is trying to just get people in and out as fast as possible. So it's kind of remarkable to think about that, you know, just the clear profit incentive driving every decision. There's no, there's no value that's provided to the consumer by that decision. Yeah, so that just, that one just really kind of strikes me. Whereas, you know, I think with small businesses, the business owners, like, they have to continue to find ways to provide more value because again, they're often not able to compete when it comes to price alone. These big businesses just have an ability to undercut, you know, small business prices.

Adam Rondeau: 1:03:06

Or buy them out.

Andy Bauman: 1:03:07

Exactly. And so that's really just. This creates this incentive for small businesses owners to learn more about their customer base, figure out, identify what it is that matters to them, and try and give them more of that without charging more or, you know, how can they set themselves apart from a big business that just has a lower price?

Adam Rondeau: 1:03:35

Right. There's a lot more to talk about, obviously. One thing in particular that I thought was interesting was the impact of small businesses, local businesses, on real estate and the values of, like, real estate. So obviously, like, real estate is an indication of, like, the economic success of an area. And some. I think it was the people that actually host. So I think the company is called Walkability, but they started giving out walkability scores to homes when you're, like, looking on redfin or whoever. Homes.com Zillow. They determined, though, that, like, for every walkability point on their scale, there was a direct correlation to the amount that a property would sell for. And it was like, every point was worth, like, $1,600.

Sam Bauman: 1:04:48

And what makes a home more walkable?

Adam Rondeau: 1:04:50

So it has to do with, like, how. How easily via walking can you access things like a grocery store? How easily can you access, like, just basic needs as well as public transportation, parks, stuff like that? Right. So Minnesota has a lot of walk. Minneapolis, the Twin Cities, has really high walkability scores. Scores because we have a lot of parks. We have a pretty good public transportation system, at least in terms of where you can access it. I would love to see bus lines running more consistently. But it's just, I think it's so interesting, like, clearly there is a value that we all want this sort of thing. Right? We have this sort of agnostic. Of all the thinking that we're talking about, there is something, again, innate in us that goes, I want those things around me. Yeah, I do. You know, talk about a romantic vision. I'm walking down the street to go grab my groceries for dinner just for that night, or I'm walking to a coffee shop that's right around the corner from my house. And so we all want these things. I think what we're sitting here talking about is trying to make sure people think about that consciously and how they can create more of those spaces by supporting local and small businesses.

Andy Bauman: 1:06:14

Totally. I think it's about detangling some of the, like, this complex web of social forces and capitalism and, you know, really trying to tease out what are the things that. That really matter to us both individually and, you know, socially. Just knowing that, you know, with the pace of life and these. These forces that we all experience. It can be really hard to continually make those decisions to really weigh that, the power that we have as consumers. It's, it's hard. But the more that we shine a light on the actual impacts, whether it's immediate impacts or long term impacts, I think the easier that it gets to feel good about making that decision. You know, I'm gonna spend, you know, a few extra dollars on this purchase to, or I'm going to go out of my way to shop in person at this, you know, local business. To really make that decision feel a lot more feasible, I think is part of what, you know, we believe in.

Sam Bauman: 1:07:42

I'm really glad that you brought up this idea of like taking some time to think about what it is that you really want. You know, we've talked a lot about values today and the values of a business and how that impacts you know, the consumer experience. But I do think what we're really saying is, you know, as a consumer, we want to understand our own values too, and play those out. And, you know, that's my own personal bias showing for sure. But I think if we want to really embrace the power that we have as individuals and create through that power a world that looks more like what we want it to look like, I think the way that we do that is first by understanding, you know, what do we want at the core, and if that is, you know, we want more to strengthen, we want to strengthen our local economy, or we want to support the people in our community, or we want to be a part of a richer community. How do our choices reflect or not reflect those values?

Adam Rondeau: 1:08:47

And by richer you mean you want big money or.

Sam Bauman: 1:08:52

Emotionally richer?

Adam Rondeau: 1:08:54

That's what I figured you meant.

Sam Bauman: 1:08:55

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 1:08:55

Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I mean, I'm interested in talking about. Well, there's one stat that I've got in front of me that I haven't said yet that I wanted to bring up, which I think, you know, goes back to some of the privileged stuff that were talking about. And you know, we hear a lot about things, especially when we're talking about black communities with, in, let's see, what's the way that I'm trying to say this exactly? When we're thinking of these underserved communities, we oftentimes talk about like an individual experience and microaggressions and stuff like that. But I think it's also important to point out how pervasive or redlining that's another thing that comes to mind, but how pervasive some of that systemic racism is when it comes to business ownerships. Business ownership. And Goldman Sachs did a study and determined that black businesses, Black business owners receive only 32% of the requested funding when they go and seek, you know, money from a bank. Whereas, like, the national average is 40%, so an 8% difference when that national average also already includes those black business owners. So when you're talking about, you know, the chain be the change you want to see in the world sort of mentality, and you're thinking about where you're spending your money, another thing that you can do to sort of try to swing or rebalance that thing out is by not only supporting local small businesses, but locally owned small businesses owned by black business owners or people of color in general. And I think that, you know, again, how hard is it to really do that these days? There's. We live in a. In the Twin Cities especially, we have quite a diverse population. Not maybe as diverse as some other areas in our country, but certainly more diverse than the suburb that I grew up in.

Andy Bauman: 1:11:17

Yeah. And I think that there's real value or benefit in business owners reflecting the makeup of the communities that they're serving. And the more that, you know, the more that. The more big businesses that occupy, you know, our communities that. That exist in our communities, like, the less that those businesses reflect the communities, you know, in northeast Minneapolis, where we all happen to live, you know, we can just walk a few blocks to Central Avenue and the number of different restaurants of. Of different types of cuisines, or just shop fronts in general that clearly are serving the diverse communities that. That live there is, I think, invaluable especially to, you know, to the immigrant communities that. That live nearby. You know, we can walk into a lot of stores and feel like the people that work there, the people that own it, look like us, you know, But I think that's, you know, not something to be overlooked as a. As a consumer, you know. Yeah. Like, we've talked about the sense of belonging. And if you know, walk in and it's a. It's a cultural space that doesn't feel like it was, you know, made with you in mind. You don't feel like you really belong. That's. That's an alienating experience, and I don't think it strengthens our communities.

Sam Bauman: 1:13:11

Yeah. So how do we support small businesses other than obviously going to them? But I know that's not always possible either because you don't have the financial resources or Maybe it's harder to get transportation or. You know, I know for me, a challenge that I have is I get my groceries delivered because it feels really hard to fit that task into my life with kids and work and everything. And yet I also want to be supporting small businesses. So what options do we have?

Adam Rondeau: 1:13:49

Yeah, I mean, I think that if there's a business that you love, go and give them a review on Google or Yelp. That's worth a lot of money to them. And as much as you going and making a purchase there, I think that, you know, if they, if a business that you love has a rewards program, sign up for it, because that data is useful to them. So that when you do have the time or money to go to those places, they, you know, you're supporting them beyond just the money you're spending. If they have a newsletter like some of the people that we, you know, the Mustache Cat sends out a newsletter, sign up for that so that you can stay aware of events where you just showing up makes a difference. Right. Going to the Mustache Cat's birthday party is a way of showing support, because if that thing gets big enough to suddenly be a block party, you know, people are now becoming more aware of that space and that local business is going to become more successful and be more capable of serving the community. So loyalty program, newsletters, reviews on platforms, social media platforms, are all good ways to do it without spending money. I would challenge everyone to try and think of a, gosh, I want to make like a punch card that we could mail to people for free, where it's like every 10th purchase, try and make a local purchase instead of whatever you were going to do for that 10th purchase, because that feels a little more possible, especially when technology has made it easier to support local businesses without going to their brick and mortar store. And a lot of local businesses and small businesses are run out of a household anyway. But so I challenge everyone to shop at a local place at least one time out of every 10 purchases. And then anytime somebody's in town, when you're recommending where to go, give them a list of local businesses that you believe in.

Sam Bauman: 1:16:03

Just talking about those businesses in general, even if it's just with your friends or when you're deciding, you know, where to go for dinner. I think that those can be really powerful.

Andy Bauman: 1:16:13

Yeah, I think it's, you know, really just taking the time to appreciate and think about the. The role that these businesses play in our lives and in our communities. I think it can be easy to. To overlook or just notice on an, in an intentional way. You know, it's easy to just go about our lives, not ever thinking about these things. But when you do step back and think about what your life would be if, you know, you only were able to shop at chains or, you know, think about some of the local places that you frequent and if they weren't there, you know, how much of a bummer that would be. And suddenly I think it starts to change the equation in your head, you know, to back up briefly. I think that we would all say that it's important not to go through this with a feeling of like guilt. I don't think that, I think that everybody's gotta, you know, decide for themselves what works, what's possible. You know, we all have to exist in the social framework that we're in and there those pressures are real. You know, we have to pay our bills. We've, you know, people have rent, got to buy groceries. So sometimes you just, you can't, you know, you have to go to Walmart or Amazon or, you know, wherever it is that you can afford it. And I don't think that there's any shame in that. We should, whatever we do, we should feel good about it. We should do it with, you know, a sense of that intentionality. That way when we purchase at Walmart. Yeah. We can have in the back of our mind like the punt your punch card idea. Adam, you know, well, all right. You know, every so often I'm going to go out of my way to, yeah. To kind of reinvest some of that, the savings that maybe I accrued by shopping at Walmart. You know, there's, those are real things and I don't think that it's helpful for anyone to kind of be feel guilted or pressured or shamed into changing their spending habits. That's never the goal. But so I think it's important to just recognize that it's going to look and feel different for everybody.

Sam Bauman: 1:19:07

I also think, you know, we've talked a bit about like the price difference and some of the sort of like challenges of patroning small businesses, but that's not true across the board. You know, we interviewed Evergreen Collective and they specialize in providing like eco friendly home goods to their customers. And Taylor, who we interviewed, spends so much time researching the products that she's going to put in her store and curating them and her value offering. You know, I think she probably has competitive prices on some things, but she's Also cutting out all of the work of you having to go and research what are the right products to align with my value of being eco friendly. Right. So. So if we're just looking at the dollars, sometimes it is going to be the same price anyways. But even if it's a little bit more, you have to remember what else you're getting out of it. And that's. Yeah, I think it's just important to take a more holistic perspective and to remember that sometimes a small business can be price competitive with a big box store on certain things.

Adam Rondeau: 1:20:12

Yeah. So I think in general it's about bringing it into the forefront of our minds more often. Which is why that part punch card idea is interesting to me because, you know, in a perfect world, we're making that decision every time. But that doesn't mean that you should feel bad if that's not possible for you. It's probably not possible for many people. But the punch cord card thing is something that like makes you think, oh, okay, is it this time? Should I do it this time? Because this is a product that is a little bit easier to get locally or is it actually just, you know, easier for me because it's so easy for us to slip into sort of autopilot. I think that just having at least a moment where you're disrupting sort of your lizard brain that has found its way into these patterns to think about, how could I change this behavior in a way that doesn't actually end up disrupting much of my regular rhythm, but does, you know, align better with my values? I think that another way to support small businesses is if there is a new one in your area, whether you intend to spend money there or not. Walk into that place, learn what that place is, because you never know. There's a lot of punny titles out there for shops these days. You don't know what it's like. You don't know what the vibe is like. You can look online later, you can wait to see how people review it, but at the end of the day, you walking in there and knowing that it exists means that you're more likely to recommend it to somebody who it seems like it might appeal to, which means that business will get business from someone else who it is meant to speak to and. Or you might find yourself going there.

Andy Bauman: 1:21:55

So be a little curious.

Adam Rondeau: 1:21:57

Yeah, be curious. Look at what is around you. What are you driving by on your way to work, every day, biking by, whatever that you haven't explored before. So I think if I were to sort of restate our list of things we can do. Obviously, trying to shop local is the most impactful thing, but leaving positive Google and Yelp reviews, talking about these places within your local, like your social groups.

Andy Bauman: 1:22:28

Just being kind of like champions or ambassadors for the brands or the businesses, the local businesses that we love. And, you know, oftentimes people are on social media asking for recommendations, you know, and those are great times that don't cost money to just give a shout out to those businesses that you love.

Adam Rondeau: 1:22:51

Right. And then like I mentioned earlier, signing up for any newsletters, joining loyalty programs, attending any local events for small businesses.

Sam Bauman: 1:23:04

Listening to podcasts where small businesses tell their stories.

Adam Rondeau: 1:23:09

That's right. So, you know, to sort of then I guess take the thing that, like, Andy had brought up about feeling bad and has been a part of this last half or last part of this conversation. These are just things that you can do. You not doing them doesn't mean you should feel bad. But taking the time to think, are there those things that I could do to strengthen my community and support these local and small businesses around me is all that we're asking for.

Sam Bauman: 1:23:41

Yeah. So I think what we're really trying to accomplish with this conversation, as we've said, is just helping you start thinking about these things. You know, we talked about some of the actions that you can take, and we are not experts. We do not have all the answers here, but we feel really strongly that small businesses are important. We have seen the positive impacts of those small businesses. We've spoken with the owners of the small businesses and heard their amazing and passionate stories, and we just want more of that in the world. So if you can take anything away from today, you know, just spend a little bit more time thinking about how you want to engage with your community and engage with the small businesses around you, and maybe some of the suggestions that we provided will help you do that. I'm not quite sure how to wrap it up, but I kind of feel like we're wrapped up. I mean, we didn't really. There's just not like an easy way to, like, nicely end it. But we'll just.

Andy Bauman: 1:24:42

Thank us for record.

Sam Bauman: 1:24:43

An intro. Andy Bauman and Adam Rondo, thank you so much for your incredible insights today.

Adam Rondeau: 1:24:50

Sam Bauman andy Bauman, thank you so much for your incredible insights today. This has been an amazing conversation.

Andy Bauman: 1:24:57

And all you listeners, you can write us to tell us how much you love listening to us so that we can do it more often for you.

Sam Bauman: 1:25:06

I would freak out if we got fan mail.

Adam Rondeau: 1:25:10

Oh yeah. All right. That would be. That's the goal now.

Sam Bauman: 1:25:13

That's the goal.

Andy Bauman: 1:25:14

Fans, we want to hear from you.

Sam Bauman: 1:25:23

Thanks for listening to this special episode of not so SmallBusinessMattersFinal. Since we're all on the podcast together for the first time, I wanted to share a little bit more about the awesome folks at Mellowlark. So me, in addition to hosting not so SmallBusinessMattersFinal, I have a background in mental health counseling and organization development and I absolutely love working with the people of a small business. I love building community, understanding systems and guiding businesses to achieve their goals. As many of you know, Adam is our podcast producer and in season two he has joined me as co host. Adam also has a background in sociology and a passion for connecting people. At Mellowlark, he uses this passion, along with his expertise in data and technology, to help small business owners turn their information into insights and reconnect with their work. Andy, the third member of Mellowlark, is an artist and designer who loves visual communication and storytelling. He helps our clients find their voice and connect with their customers in an authentic, values driven way. It was such a treat to get to have this conversation today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Be sure to check out past episodes of the podcast@mellollark.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. And tune in next week for our conversation with Joy McBreen of Fair Anita. Also, if you love the podcast, share it with someone else or write us a review on your favorite podcast app, or both. Have a great day.