Lagoon: Ryan Hurley

Starting a business is way harder than running a 100-mile ultramarathon and Ryan Hurley has done both! In this episode, hosts Sam Bauman and Adam Rondeau visit Ryan at the Lagoon warehouse to learn about his sleep and fitness company that aims to help athletes optimize their rest through an often-overlooked piece of equipment: the pillow. Ryan shares his journey from NBC Sports to founder, including the moment he realized he needed to stop trying to sell to everyone and lean into the demographic he knew best. By positioning Lagoon as "the pillow for runners" and getting comfortable putting himself out there on social media, Ryan found his niche. He talks honestly about the challenges of entrepreneurship: losing friends and family money in the first year, the months of not paying himself, and the fine line between perseverance and stupidity. But he also celebrates the flexibility and joy of building a life he loves, even if it means making less money than he would in a corporate job. His advice? Do the work, know your numbers, and run your own race.

Guest Info

• Business: Lagoon
• Guest: Ryan Hurley (he/him)
• Links: Website • Instagram

Community Shoutout

• Business: Groveland Confections
• Location: Minnetonka, MN
• Links: Website • Instagram

Other Links:

• The Drop (Believe in the Run) Podcast
• Twin Cities Marathon

Host & Show Info

• Host Name: Sam Bauman (she/her)
• About the Host: Sam is the President of Mellowlark Labs, a Twin Cities-based small business consulting agency. She has a masters degree in counseling psychology, a field she worked in for several years before applying her skills in business, and is certified in Organization Development.

Podcast Website

Sound Editing By: Adam Rondeau
Podcast Art By: Andy Bauman (website)

Transcript

Sam Bauman: 0:11

Happy Monday and welcome to the neighborhood. I'm Sam Bauman.

Adam Rondeau: 0:14

And I'm Adam Rondo.

Sam Bauman: 0:15

And this is not so small. Today's guest is Ryan Hurley, owner of Lagoon, a sleep and fitness company that specializes in helping athletes find the perfect pillow to optimize their sleep. As you might imagine, Ryan never thought he'd become a pillow salesperson. But as an endurance athlete himself, he knows how important getting a good night of sleep is. And a pillow is an often overlooked but essential part of sleep. Out of his own personal frustration with so many inadequate pillows, he thought, there has to be a better way. Now with Lagoon, Ryan is helping athletes and everyday people optimize their rest to improve their day to day lives. Ryan talks with us about the challenges of building a business, the importance of finding his niche, and why perseverance and stupidity sometimes look remarkably similar when you're running a business with no finish line in sight. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Oh, well, I'm so excited to be here today. I'm so glad we could make this work. So thank you for, for inviting us to your warehouse.

Ryan Hurley: 1:19

Thanks for having, thanks for coming out.

Sam Bauman: 1:21

Yeah. So maybe you could just start by introducing yourself and telling us about your business. Yeah.

Ryan Hurley: 1:27

Well, my name is Ryan Hurley. I'm the founder of Lagoon. I like to consider our business a sleep and fitness business. And what we do primarily is we help people improve their sleep by taking care of one of the pain points that people I think don't spend enough time thinking about. It's their pillow. So can't say that I always like see myself, saw myself becoming a pillow salesperson when I grew up. But you know, as I was thinking about what we wanted to create, where we could really make an impact, you know, I had my aha moment one day. I was like, yeah, man, like threw another pillow in the guest bedroom that I thought was going to be a good pillow and just died after, you know, three months. Whatever it was, I was like, there's got to be a better way for us to do so. Started just ideating around that. Could, could we actually figure out a better way to help people find the pillow that's right for them? Because I mean, while it seems like it is an afterthought, I think I can make a pretty good case why it should potentially be One of the 10, 20 most important purchases you do make, considering how much time you're spending with it. So we kind of like started to build the brand around pillow specifically and then, you know, given where our brand has Grown into and given my background as kind of an endurance athlete, have really started thinking about how we can just use Lagoon as a vehicle to help people think about how to optimize their sleep so they can improve their daily performance. So that's kind of the mission behind the brand, if you will, too.

Sam Bauman: 2:59

I love that answer because it answers one of the questions I wanted to ask, which is like, why pillows? Right. Like, you talk about how sleep is really important as an athlete and really for all people, and pillows are certainly a part of sleep, but there's so many different angles that you could have come at this from. And it sounds like really, pillows are just the beginning.

Ryan Hurley: 3:20

Yeah, well, it is. You know, it is. It is a question of, like, where. Where do you begin? And, you know, as somebody that really just, you know, I think I pride myself a lot in thinking about just performance. So it's a little bit of a weird juxtaposition. Thinking. Thinking or talking about sleep. Because a lot of times when you're like, if you're sleeping well, it's pretty boring. It's like a pretty boring thing, right? Like, if you're sleeping well, you're just out. So we. I like to think about how, you know, we tell stories about. I slept well. So that. And here are the stories about what people do because they optimize their sleep. And that's really what kind of makes the space super interesting to me. So just thinking about sleep as something that can be optimized, it really is like, I don't generally like to think of things as a means to an end, but. But I think in this particular instance, it, like, absolutely is okay to think about sleep as a means to end so that you can go out and do something great the next day. and then. Yeah, in terms of. Of, like, why pillows? It really is just because I think there is so much confusion and. And. And, like, so many options out there without any really clear direction. I mean, you guys have probably been in the same scenario too, like in the aisles of HomeGoods or the aisles of Targets, and you're like, I guess I'll get the two pack. Or like, yeah, I guess this one, like, feels kind of nice. So I just felt like there was a really good opportunity to optimize that. And then really interesting because I didn't have any background in textiles, which I didn't realize what a hurdle that would become until I really got into it. But, man, I've learned a lot. And I think it shows in the product and how the product has evolved over the past couple years as well, too. But it really can make such a difference in terms of the materials you use, how soft something is, how breathable it is. So, like, I'm really happy with where our lineup is today. And, you know, I think what's really interesting to see is just the. The reviews we hear from people and. And like, even people using their aura ring or their sleep data and showing how much a pillow actually can improve the quality of your sleep, too. So it's great to actually be realizing today that, like, this one object we identified as something that could be critical kind of in your entire sleep setup that actually has made a lot of difference for a lot of our consumers. I think the things that you think about most when you think about a pillow is like, neck, back, shoulder pain. And those are the things we hear about all the time in our reviews that we really help solve. But then the things you probably don't think about quite as much as how much it can improve the quality of your deep sleep and your REM sleep, which, I mean, in today's day and age, with everybody being so connected to their sleep scores and their devices and everything, people are talking about a lot. And what's been interesting is that I think we found that when you find a pill that's right for you get more comfortable quicker, so you fall asleep easier, and you're not constantly trying to find that sweet spot throughout the course of the night, so you're actually staying asleep. You're not tossing and turning as much, and that means you're just getting into fuller cycles of sleep, too. So that's really how you improve the quality of your sleep as well. Yeah, kind of like, you know, I feel like I spend a lot of my time convincing people, like, why, you know, why. Why you really should be thinking about your pillow. But I think people are definitely coming around to it, for sure.

Sam Bauman: 6:40

Yeah. It sounds like you're seeing some actual feedback and evidence that this is an important entry point for improving sleep, for sure.

Adam Rondeau: 6:48

I'm curious to hear more about. So when you identified this opportunity, then you were like, okay, this is something I want to explore. What was even your first step in trying. You know, you talked about having no experience with textiles.

Ryan Hurley: 7:03

Yeah, well, the one thing I did have experience in was kind of just, like, with startups in general, my. In my previous life working with NBC Sports, I was on the business development side of things. And so we saw startups all the time. So I got to meet with founders and, like, because they were either interested in partnering with NBC Sports or potentially having an investment or an acquisition. So I got to meet all these founders and then I went to business school while I was doing that as well. So I of course kind of got that itch from all these other people talking about what they do and just throwing out ideas and things like that. So I definitely had some knowledge about what it might look like. I knew how to put together a business plan. The old saying of like, it's going to be so much harder than you think it is, I said in my head. I was like, no, I know how hard it's going to because everybody's told me already. So I'm like, thought I was prepared. Total. A total lie. Totally not true. Way, way harder than I thought it was going to be. Still. So anybody that tells you that it's going to be harder than you think it is, it's like, still going to be harder than you think you're preparing yourself for. But, you know, so I think with all of that, I was really prepared. I, like, had an idea of like, how to raise some, like, money from friends and family. Had an idea of like, how to pull together a business plan relatively savvy in terms of like, getting incorporated and like, understanding, like, technical enough to like, know how to use Shopify and like, understand, like, okay, here's roughly how much I need to put into marketing and sales and, you know, so on and so forth. So I was actually felt like I was pretty prepared on that front. I think the thing that was hardest for me out of the gate to really like, have like come to fruition was how hard it is to like. I guess the best analogy I can come up with is get out of park. Like, when you're a new business and you have no customers, you have no reputation, you have nothing, thinking that somebody's just gonna come to your website and buy a pillow from you when they could be buying a pillow from Casper or Purple or these multimillion dollar corporations. You'd almost have to be crazy to be the first person to buy a pillow from Lagoon. And frankly, of course, I'm sure, like many stories you guys hear, the first people who buy pillows from you are your friends and family. So hopefully you just need to build up bit of that. And so really just like, it is like trying to move a boulder, right? Sorry. Not using too many analogies, but like, you gotta just like start to get a little bit of momentum somehow. So while things are still always hard today and like, you're constantly fighting to find product market fit and to, you know, make your customer acquisition costs work and all those things. At least you have a little bit of the boulder rolling that flywheel going now that. That does just feel like you're not in park, like, desperately trying to get out of it.

Adam Rondeau: 9:53

Yeah.

Sam Bauman: 9:54

Well, I feel like that is really one of the unique challenges of starting and running a small business, because, you know, in a world where we have so many different options for every single product or service that we might want to purchase, it is hard to convince ourselves as consumers to try something that's kind of untested for sure. Right. So what we hear a lot from small businesses, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on, is they find success in, you know, basically creating a unique angle or unique story behind their product or service that sets them apart from the bigger corporations 100%.

Ryan Hurley: 10:33

You know, I think, like, out of the gate, you're kind of, like, stuck with one or two things. Are you going to build your brand or your business on something that's completely new and interesting and unique? And, like, it's actually really hard to find something that hasn't been created yet. I spent, like, years thinking about it. I mean, most things exist. Even when you have, like, an original thought and you're like, that would be a really cool idea. If you Google it probably, like, it probably already exists, but, you know, so I thought our original idea was kind of our approach, you know, like, none of our pillows out of the gate were necessarily anything that didn't exist on the market. But our approach of matching people with the pillow that's going to be right for them and making sure that we had a lineup of pillows that was diverse enough to meet the people needs of all different types of sleepers. I thought that was going to be our unique thing. I will say, looking back on it, if I had to, like, give any advice to a founder, I like having your approach be your differentiator isn't what I would recommend. Like, like, have your product be your differentiator. Or to your point, like, have. Have the brand have the story be the differentiator as well, too. And I think that's kind of what we found over time. Like when. When I was trying to find my footing with Lagoon, it was like, okay, you're right. Everybody needs a pillow. So, like, let's go try to talk to everybody. So I was talking to mommy bloggers, home interior designers, you know, all these different Personas to see who would. Who our message would resonate best with. And at the end of the day, it was like, okay, Ryan, come back to what? You know, like, I'm a lifelong endurance athlete. I'm somebody who worked at NBC Sports for 10 years. It's athletes that I understand the best. It's probably also, Ryan, the reason why he started a pillow company is because as an athlete, you actually really care about your sleep. So that was kind of like my boneheaded moment where we're like, yeah, Ryan, this is like hitting you on the head. This should be obvious to you. But it wasn't until we had actually a friend of mine, his now wife is an Olympian, an olympic runner. Cory McGee's her name. And she just, like, you know, as a friend, threw up a post for us on Instagram, and like, a handful of people actually put orders in. I was like, okay, there's something here. And so I was like, well, let's just start talking to runners. I know runners. I'm a runner. I understand runners. Let's start to build the business around this idea of improving, optimizing your sleep so that you can improve your daily performance. And I would say that just as much, if not more of Lagoon success has been centered around the idea of having an identity about what we are as a business and who we speak to, as opposed to our product or our approach being any more differentiated.

Sam Bauman: 13:10

Well, you know, that is, I think, the shortcut to building up a rapport or a reputation in your community. Right. So an easy answer to that question of, well, why should I go to Lagoon versus Casper is, well, Lagoon. I mean, the person who started this business is like me, right? You can see yourself not just in the product, but actually in, like, who is representing that product. That's really powerful. And that is going to make me a lot more likely to choose that if I identify with your story 100%.

Ryan Hurley: 13:44

And, you know, I think it just goes to show the importance that in most cases, like founders, you're gonna. You're gonna have to get comfortable putting yourself out there. And I wouldn't say that was something that I thought of coming out of the gate or something that I was really prepared for or necessarily wanted to either. I have always kind of led by example and maybe led a little bit more quietly. But you do, like, you know, to get people to resonate with your brand, your business, your story, you've got to be out there in front telling it. And sometimes it's uncomfortable. And, I mean, if you guys go look at our Instagram Lagoon Sleep, you'll see Me just like making an idiot out of myself like a lot of times. And sometimes I'm not very comfortable doing it and sometimes it comes out poorly and sometimes we get like 300 views and you know, that's just the way it is. But you kind of have to keep trying because people are watching and people do want to see that behind the scenes story and people do want to know who they're buying from. So like, you really got to be comfortable with it. I mean, if you don't believe me, just look at how much like, success any of the, like, influencer. You know, I was just reading about Hailey Bieber today and how her like skincare brand is worth $250 million or whatever it is, and her customer acquisition cost is like $1 for every $9 she does in sales. And that's just because people watch her and listen to her. And so for you, as a founder of a business, like, yeah, I'm not Hailey Bieber and I'm okay with that. But you do have to try and get some of that arbitrage too. You have to try and get some eyeballs because otherwise you're paying for every eyeball you get. And then like, can get really expensive really quickly.

Adam Rondeau: 15:32

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like, I think that's something that a lot of people forget is just how many people there are on the planet. And so like, even if I say this in other conversations often, but there's like, if you can get even a half a percentage of the like, of the US's like, population, that's an enormous amount of people, you know. So like, if you are focusing on, you know, athletes who are thinking about their sleep and seeking a pillow, even though you've added all of these filters to that group of people, it's still big.

Ryan Hurley: 16:09

Right?

Adam Rondeau: 16:10

Which means that like, if you really lean into that, those people will find their way to you over time. And that can be really powerful.

Ryan Hurley: 16:18

For sure. Yeah. I mean, we've tried to position Lagoon as like the pillow for runners. Yeah. And like you're like, that seems pretty specific. There's like 20 million runners in the U.S. you know. Yeah. I mean, if we're selling to half a percent of, you know, 20 million people, we're like, there's still plenty of room there. So I mean, the advice I got from an advisor to like niche down and like really mean it. Such great advice. Such great advice. I mean, because like, if you're not speaking to someone specifically, you're speaking to no one. I'm sure everybody's heard that. But it's so true. Like just because think of all the brands that are trying to speak to everyone like that's the Costcos or the targets of the world. Like those are the people that have hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing budgets. You don't want to, you don't want to play against them. Like you got, you've got to play your own game. You can't play theirs. You'll. You like, you will never beat them. They don't, they don't like even think or care about efficiency the way you have to when you only have like a couple thousand dollars in the bank. Like you've got to be niche down for sure.

Adam Rondeau: 17:20

Yeah.

Sam Bauman: 17:21

So tell us about some of the ways that Lagoon Sleep is planning to expand beyond pillows.

Ryan Hurley: 17:27

Yeah, great question. I mean because it's something I think about constantly, I like to think of sleep as our category. So I feel like we do have quite a lot of leeway. And just the way I talk about sleep I feel like does make it so that we can think about things that aren't just like, you know, just bet like betting as a category because that's not where I want to be. We've done a lot of experimenting. Probably the thing that we've done that's been the most out there has been our magnesium supplement which is called Night Bites. So it's actually a, it's, it has 200 milligrams of magnesium and 200 milligrams of L theanine which is just a, an amino acid that helps calm your mind as well too. All natural ingredients. But rather than doing just like a pill or a gummy, which I feel like everybody has done, I wanted to do chocolate bars because I have a sweet tooth and I just like need something sweet before bed. And every sleep professional will be like, don't eat sugar or chocolate, whatever before bed. So I was like, well could we potentially flip that on its head a little bit? So we made chocolate bars that are only 4 grams of sugar and we actually use carob rather than cacao. So it's completely caffeine free as well too. So it's actually like a little treat you can have before bed that's going to help you sleep, not the opposite. And no melatonin involved. So like nothing that's habit forming, nothing's gonna leave you habit feeling groggy in the morning. So that's been like an interesting experiment also from like the business perspective you look at that too compared to pillow where you're not going to come back and buy a pillow every month, but you could buy a supplement it every month too. So that was a little bit of the strategic thought behind that. You know, since we're all friends here and giving like the true behind the scenes of the business. Like the thing that's been hard about that while it's a unique differentiated product, which again I was like, I'm very in favor of, what's hard about it is cocoa prices are crazy right now. So we actually use cocoa butter and we use carob powder. So that's what makes it caffeine free. But cocoa butter is incredibly expensive right now. So I mean a bar costs like $2 a bar, but like our margins aren't, you know, aren't even that good on it right now. So for like an individual serving size, it's kind of like a tough value proposition for a consumer. Unless like somebody just has a lot of disposable income and they're looking to spend a lot on their sleep, which there are people out there that are doing that. But we're actually working right now. We work with a local chocolatier here in Minnetonka, actually Groveland Community Confections. Brian, the owner over there, he's been awesome to work with, so they're making it for us. But he actually, we just worked on six different samples of a powder which would take the cocoa butter out of the mix too, so it would be a lot more affordable. So the past four or five nights have actually been shaking up our little concoction, trying out our different samples. So maybe we'll be rolling something on that front out pretty soon. But some of the other things we've been doing. Travel has been like a huge extension for us just because like you can't bring your mattress with you can't bring like a lot of your sleep stuff with you. But like a lot of people actually really travel with their pillow. And the funny thing we're finding out is once somebody switches to lagoon pillow and they like create such great affinity with their pillow, they get really upset when they travel somewhere and they don't travel with it. So we just like launched a new travel bag that's like really easy way to just throw it on top of your carry on suitcase, something like that. But then, you know, part of the thing too is there are certain things where I'm like, I maybe get a little bit too ambitious about wanting to turn the world on its head. Like another example of this is Like I never wanted to run Memorial Day or Labor Day sales because that just felt like something all the like stodgy old betting companies did. But everybody likes buying betting products on Labor Day and Memorial Day. So like Ryan, if you don't want to do it, then you're just not going to have people buy your products during the periods of time where they're primed to buy it. So the only reason I give that as background is like, same thing goes with pillowcases. It's kind of the obvious answer. So while we may want to do pillows, when people are thinking about buying pillows, they're also thinking about buying pillowcases. So I would say other than pillows, pillowcases has been the thing that's been just the most natural extension. We were doing a really good high quality silk pillowcase was only product were offering as an add on for the longest period of time. But we actually just added a new nylon. We're calling it the Cooling Flex pillowcase. Which is like my idea there is. We can actually start rolling out a few different pillowcases too. So in addition to matching people with the right type of pillow for them, we could also match them with a pillow case that meets their needs too. So make it like something that again fits with Lagoon's personality of being personalized to each individual sleeper.

Adam Rondeau: 22:12

So when you're doing testing on something like that, are you also then the tester for those different pillowcases? Yeah, like the primary tester. You're the one.

Ryan Hurley: 22:21

It's. It's funny you ask that because yeah, like going back in time, my process for coming up with our original line was my wife and I test. We tested like 50, 60 different pillows to come up with our lineup of at the time we started with launched with eight pillows. That was too many. We're down, we're down to five now and really happy with the lineup. But, but that was how I tested just my wife and I and like getting her feedback. She like some nights was excited about doing other night. She's like, okay, this is too much. And I don't blame her. She was such a good sport. But I think that the thing that I realized too is I sleep on my back, which is actually I'm in the minority. 60% of people sleep on their side. So now that we actually have enough people in our community, whenever we're rolling out samples or trying something new, I actually do try and get some samples out to a few different people in the network to get some more diverse feedback because yeah. Just having like a sample size of 2 usually isn't enough, but you'd be surprised. I do now know enough about the different types of sleepers out there and what people do. And you don't like that. I am able to shortcut stuff a little bit better than I was a couple years ago.

Adam Rondeau: 23:33

Sure. That's nice. I mean.

Ryan Hurley: 23:35

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 23:35

When I think about, I don't know, there's. There is so much that you notice about things. Like if you were like travel and then you're staying with a friend and then they give you whatever pillow they've got on whatever sheets they've got. Some people have like wool sheets and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry.

Ryan Hurley: 23:53

Warm right now.

Adam Rondeau: 23:54

Even though I know wool fans are like, no, wool is the best fabric ever.

Ryan Hurley: 23:58

So they say, yeah, right.

Adam Rondeau: 23:59

Yeah. But, you know, I. So I could see how even if it's not necessarily your, you know, even when you're testing and obviously you have a network of people that you can share these products with to test as well. But even if it's just when it was just you and your wife, you put your head on it. You're like, yeah, this is firm. Or than the other one. And that might not be my favorite, but it probably is somebody's favorite. And is it some, you know, so just sort of trying to cover that spread. That's. It's an interesting place to start.

Ryan Hurley: 24:28

I mean, what's. What's so funny is like, so our most popular pillow is the otter pillow. It's like, I say it's like a 6 out of 10 on the soft firm scale. This is my own made up scale. But, you know, we'll get customer feedback from somebody, you know, one day saying, the otter pillow is just way too firm for me. I need to return this two days later, Three days later. I need to. The otter pillow is so way too soft for me. Same exact pillow. So, yeah, I mean, we do have a really good. I should say we have a very low return rate. We do a really nice job of matching people with the right pillow. But I have learned you can't, you cannot.

Adam Rondeau: 25:07

It's impossible. Everybody or even predict for them until they get to put their head on it.

Sam Bauman: 25:13

Right.

Ryan Hurley: 25:13

For sure. The best also is that some people are just very like bullheaded. And I'm a very bullheaded person. So I say that walking that carefully in terms of like, no, I know I'm a side sleeper, but I swear I like a really soft pillow. Like, it just what works for me, it's like, well, you maybe like do want a little bit more support to help fill the gap. Like, would you just like try this one? And they're like, okay, like, how weird. Like, that actually does give me support. That was better. That actually does work better. So I mean, people do just have preconceived notions from the way they've always slept. I mean, my example was for whatever reason, I mean, I guess it was because my parents always had two pillows on my bed. I was always a back sleeper, but I would always have my two pillows kind of like up against the headboard and I would basically like sleep just on the, like the corner of the pillow. Completely the wrong way to be using a pillow. But, but I don't know. So I guess education is like a really big piece. We do put a lot of content out there that just helps people think about how they should be using it. That probably is one of the hardest parts about being a direct to consumer, like online business is even if you do a great job of matching people, even if you tell the story like some people do, just like feeling the pillows. That's why we do offer the 100 night free trial to like try and encourage people to take it home with them and make it as easy for them to trial at home. But you know, we do stuff in the community. We're always at the Twin Cities marathon. So like being at an expo is like a great opportunity to have people lie in our little bed and like try to. We'll, we'll run into people. I heard about you on a podcast. I see your ads and I'm like so excited to just finally try the pillow out before I like make the, make the purchase. So that's one of the challenges, you know, continually trying to. Yeah. To figure out.

Sam Bauman: 26:58

Well, I gotta say you're a good advocate for it because on the way here I was like, this seems cool, but like, I don't know, it's a pillow. I don't need to spend more money. Now I'm like, oh, maybe I need a new pillow.

Ryan Hurley: 27:10

You know, it is, it's funny, I don't, I didn't realize how much of an uphill battle it would because I know pillows and unsexy products. But the example I always like to go back to is I listen to probably on how I built this or something. Listen to the method. So creator talk about how the soap bottle, like he loves going to the Aisles of Target and looking the product that's unsexy and figure out a way to make it sexy. I was like, that's. That's a great perspective. Let's do that with pillows. But there are still a lot of people that just think of pillows as. As unsexy. And, you know, I think one of the best ways to combat that. Yeah, I can talk about it, but. But finding partnership who just, like, have a way about making things cool sometimes, too. Like, one of the podcasts we work with is called Believe in the Run. And these guys are just like three. Two guys, one woman. They're just like, cool. They're all. They're all like, cool, and they can make anything sound cool. I was like, okay, help. Because. Because I sometimes have a hard time.

Sam Bauman: 28:06

You need a Hailey Bieber to pitch it for you.

Ryan Hurley: 28:10

But that's funny too, right? Because, you know, nobody. There isn't anybody that does, you know, pillows for a living. So, you know, like, while Hexclad has a Gordon Ramsay be the spokesperson for their pots and pans, it's such a natural fit. Who is the. Who's the professional sleeper?

Sam Bauman: 28:30

Right?

Adam Rondeau: 28:31

Yeah.

Ryan Hurley: 28:31

I don't know. You guys have any idea?

Sam Bauman: 28:33

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 28:34

The Olympian that it sounds like helped kick things off is, like, a good example, though, of, like, the. Probably the best that you can really do.

Ryan Hurley: 28:40

For sure.

Adam Rondeau: 28:41

Here's an athlete at the top of their game saying, my sleep matters. And this is the thing that I like to use to sleep.

Ryan Hurley: 28:47

Maybe it would be just like a new category. We should just like, start.

Adam Rondeau: 28:50

Oh, my gosh.

Ryan Hurley: 28:51

Who's the best sleep? Like, like, who's got the best make.

Adam Rondeau: 28:55

Like a sort of a silly annual event that you host. That's just like, who can be the best sleeping company? Some sort of sleeping competition.

Ryan Hurley: 29:02

Yeah, I think. I think it would work. You know, use whatever tracking device you have. Whoever's getting 99 could get a sponsorship deal from Lagoon. Yeah.

Sam Bauman: 29:11

Oh, my God.

Adam Rondeau: 29:12

That's pretty fun. That's a fun idea.

Sam Bauman: 29:15

So other than starting this business, which obviously is its own risk, what is one risk that you've taken since Lagoon started?

Ryan Hurley: 29:25

Yeah, I think one of the things that. One, again, same advisor I was talking about earlier that he's really helped coach into my mind is taking, like, right sized, appropriate risks for how much, like, cash you have in the bank. We never had that perfect product market fit or that perfect channel where it's like, let's just go all in, caution to the wind, or. I've never felt so convinced about one individual that I'm like, I'll be willing to throw a hundred thousand dollars at this idea. And let's like, I'm that convinced it's gonna work. So it's always been kind of rising tides across all of our platforms. So early on it was to the point where if I was making a $3,000 bet, that was a big bet, and if it failed, I really felt it, but the business would survive. Now we're probably at the point where we can make 10 or $20,000 bets, and if it fails, the business is going to survive. But also now I've gotten smarter about what works and what doesn't work. So if I'm making a test 10 or $20,000 bet, I know the outcome's not. I won't make it. If the outcome could be zero, I would make it. If the outcome could potentially be just like, we maybe don't break even, but. But, you know, not going to completely empty out the bank. So I've had to be really careful in that sense. But. But the downside of that is that, you know, every time you test like a new vertical or like, you know, we've been looking at potentially crossfit athletes or potentially triathletes or potentially cyclists, then you're just going to be a little bit slower to grow in those industries. And that's kind of a downside that I guess I'm willing to take when the opposite would be just losing all our money and going out of business. It just is kind of a reality of where we are. I think our story would be different if we did raise $5 million from, you know, so and so venture company, and then we can just be super aggressive. But I'm pretty happy with the route we've. We've taken. And I like that methodical approach. It kind of more matches my personality, too. The only thing I really have to temper is those times where you have a little bit of the jealousy or the imposter syndrome or whatever it is. And you see those companies that they found their channel, they. They're on TikTok and just blowing up like crazy, and you're like, oh man, I wish I could have just hit $10 million in our first year as well too. And yeah, you just got to pull yourself back from that ledge. Everybody's running their own race.

Sam Bauman: 32:01

So a little bit of a different question then. You know, what is one of the hardest moments that you've experienced, even if it didn't amount to a big risk for the business?

Ryan Hurley: 32:11

Yeah, I would say the Hardest thing that has been the uncertainty for sure and the uncertainty over a long period of time. Like, am I doing the right thing? One of the comparisons I like to make as an endurance athlete myself was I did like a LinkedIn post on it. What's harder starting a business or running an ironman? And it's like not even close. Starting a business is so much harder. Even most recently I just ran out, did my first 100 mile ultra run and yeah, that was really hard. But I was done in 20, like I was done in 28 hours. And life goes on this journey. There is no finish line, you know, there is no finish line. There is nothing predictable about it. You don't even know if you like should be running the race or not. There's, there's like a very good case that could be made like you should have packed up and like gone and done something else a year ago. So I mean you almost have to just have, I wouldn't say blind conviction, but you have to have personal conviction that what you're doing is the right thing. And it's really hard when you're not paying yourself. When you're not paying yourself for a period of time. I almost default. I'm pretty. Like I'm okay with risk, so I was okay not paying myself for 18 to 12 to 18 months, however long it was. But my wife is much more risk averse than I am and as a good husband I have to be considerate of that. So too, like it's not just about me. And there is a lot of selfishness to being a founder. Like you need a supportive network too. Like, you know, she loves her job in general, but she's on a great career path too. But she brings so much stability to our relationship while I'm out trying to make this thing work. So I try not to take that for granted. But the, like the things where you, where I really feel it and really realize it. There's been a few times and actually just have one in September, August and September. We're just like a lot of things in a row aren't going as well as you want them to. And of course it's easy like it's easy to just like take one setback and like if you like quit after one setback, you probably weren't meant to be like a founder or an entrepreneur. But it does get really hard when you get like bad news after bad news or have bad sales day after bad sales day like consecutively for Like a week or like a month or like two months. You're like, oh, man. Like, are we still doing the right thing here? Those are the times where it tests your attest, your might.

Sam Bauman: 34:37

What keeps you going during those times.

Ryan Hurley: 34:39

Honestly, it's a. It's a really fine line between perseverance and stupidity. And I say that somewhat in jest, but. But, like, I honestly don't even know if it's the. Like, if it's the right answer sometimes. Like, I. I do pride my. Myself and my perseverance. I think it's probably one of my strongest qualities. But I could just being stupid too, right? Like, I mean, because if you look at it as a founder, you know, what. What's your best alternative? You know, it's probably going back and doing a corporate job where I would be making more money than I'm making right now. But, you know, then you have to weigh that against. Do you love the life you're building? Do you love the flexibility? Do you have. Do you have. Do you love the fact that I can go pick my son up for. From daycare whenever I want to, and I can walk him in the mornings, and I can build the brand the way I want to be building it? I can be, like, doing. Having business conversations, the types of conversations I want to be having, not that somebody else is kind of dictating to me. So there's like, a lot of pros, and you just kind of have to weigh it with, like, some of the cons, too. Excuse me.

Sam Bauman: 35:39

Well, I think that's such a familiar story for business owners. You know, like, there's this idea that you have a message or a purpose that you want to bring to your customers. And then personally, there's also a lot of benefits to running your own business. I mean, it's really empowering to get to be the one making those decisions. It's exciting. And some of that up and down is what brings the excitement. You know, like, after a week of bad days, you have a good day and you're like, this is even better than, you know, my best day at my corporate job.

Ryan Hurley: 36:12

Yeah, that's so true. And I'm such a glutton for that as well, too. Right? Like. Like, I mean, the best things in life are the things that you have to work hard for. Right. Anybody that's run a race or accomplished anything, you know, you. You know that it feels so much better when you've really had to work hard for it. So, yeah, it's. It's so True. Anybody that like, I couldn't encourage more anybody that's considering entrepreneur to go after it and chase it. But like, know that you do have to have a thick stomach for it too. and you do have to like do your own internal calculus and be super honest with yourself about whether you're being smart. and whether there is like an end in sight or whether you know it's just not the right thing. You, like, you can always try, try again too, but you don't want to quit too early either. And that's where it gets really complicated. I think one of the things that one of my favorite sayings or facts is that the number one determining factor on why a business doesn't succeed is the founder's willingness to make it succeed. And as somebody who prides himself and just really willing to work hard for the thing, I was like, man, I can't let me be the reason the business fails. But at the same time, if there are just so many signs that the business just isn't working, like, you gotta be super honest with yourself. Another founder who I regularly talk to, he put it in pretty simple terms for me. He's like, is the business still growing? Are you still enjoying doing it? And is there a path here? And if the answer is yeah, then keep going. But if you have just bad day after bad day and you just feel like you've turned over every single stone, then maybe it's time. But, but like, but it's kind of crazy as long as you stay in the game too, like you'll have a good idea or like opportunities will come to you. Like just the mere fact of staying in the game really does like just living, living another day can mean, can mean a lot.

Sam Bauman: 38:09

I can't remember who came up with this concept, but it's this idea of the infinite game, which is like what you were talking about earlier, where in business it's not like a marathon or an ultra run where you have a starting point and a finish point and you just get there and then it's over. It goes on sort of indefinitely until you decide to stop or until you retire or die or whatever. And that really changes the mindset, I think, of a business owner as far as where are you taking risks and how are you taking risks. You might take a risk in a bigger way during a hundred mile run because you know if you push it a little too hard, like you'll still get there eventually. But with a business, it doesn't always work that way.

Ryan Hurley: 38:54

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think it's so appropriate and I think probably like the only way we as humans that need like some of those, you know, goals and intermediate satisfaction is like setting those intermediate goals along the way to like, can I get to. I won't say the number, but like my wife and I talked about a number that I need to hit to be able to take home to, you know, just to not be a deadbeat husband. And, and you know, I didn't quite hit it. But, but like we figure, you know, like when you figure out a way to like be like, okay, but can we fill our bucket this way? Are we okay with that? And, and you kind of have to do that too. But, but like, there's got to be something along the way that you hold yourself accountable to. Otherwise. Yeah, I mean, it can get messy.

Sam Bauman: 39:38

Yeah.

Adam Rondeau: 39:39

So I was wondering, you've mentioned the idea that like, it's like a run that you don't even know that you should be running. And so yet you decided to start this run. We haven't heard yet, I guess where that started for you, like, because it sounds like you worked for NBC Sports.

Ryan Hurley: 39:57

Yep.

Adam Rondeau: 39:57

And was it right out of there that this came or what was like sort of the in between of those two timeline points?

Ryan Hurley: 40:03

It was and I'm comfortable talking about it since everybody at NBC kind of knows the story now. But I was doing the moonlighting thing for a little while. So I knew I wanted to start my own business for several years beforehand. I was kind of looking for an idea for a while. I actually did want to create a non alcoholic brewery even before Lagoon, but that would have required like many millions of dollars in startup capital, which that was too hard for me. But I started the journey for Lagoon in like during co. During COVID At the very beginning of COVID was when were. I was thinking of the idea and like being home from work during COVID kind of provided the opportunity to buy 60 pillows and try them out with my wife. And, and you know, so I just started putting out feelers to friends and family. Hey, would you guys be interested in supporting me in this journey? Journey. So raised some friends and family money and then, you know, officially we incorporated in January of 2021 and launched the site of August of 2021. It was crickets at the launch and I really had to figure some stuff out. So it was like really slow going at the beginning, I left my job at NBC Sports in March of 2022. So, you know, I was trying to do the moonlighting thing, but I was like, I'm never gonna grow lagoon to what it needs to be by doing this part time. And if I don't go all in, I'll never forgive myself for that either. So I did it. And yeah, I waited till I got my last bonus, so I had a little bit of a cushion because we kind of needed it. And really I didn't pay myself at all for 18 months. And I've actually just so people understand how hard it is to. Didn't pay myself at all, started paying myself a little bit, but there was not a Runway for me to be making enough money for that to be viable. And then about 18 months in, I had the opportunity to pick up some consulting work. And it was going to be 15 hours a week, but it was going to be enough to kind of help bridge that gap and keep going. And so I'm super fortunate that local startup here brought me on in that capacity because that has then provided some consistency for me to keep pursuing my dream. So while I was like, okay, you know, I think my initial calculation was, yeah, I could go, we can go 12 or 18 months without me paying myself at all. But it took longer than that. And if I didn't have that alternate plan out there, then I would have had to. Had to pack up shop. So that was just kind of one of the points along the way where there was that make or break moment that fortunately turned up. But yeah, so, you know, since August of 2021, super small the first year. The second year, we really kind of found out the athlete angle. So things started to click. I lost all my friends and family money in the first 12 months. Again, you know, as an MBA and like somebody that said he knew exactly what he was going to do, the only grace I'll provide myself is that I learned a lot with that money as well too. So while we blew it all and I knew I had to be profitable going forward, I learned the hard way and a lot of things too. So since 2022 then, you know, since that first 12, 18 months have had to be profitable or neutral. So the business since then, we haven't taken on any additional money. But now, you know, we just kind of passed a million dollars in revenue through over the, like, annual revenue this during some point this year. So that was like a huge milestone.

Adam Rondeau: 43:41

Congratulations.

Sam Bauman: 43:42

Thank you.

Ryan Hurley: 43:42

Yeah, I mean, like, you do have to stop every once in a while to pat yourself on the back, otherwise you know, you're gonna go crazy. So that was a really big milestone for us. And, and yeah, you know, I, I think we're finding a path. We need to find some new markets, we need to find some new, continue to add new products. But at least we've got that boulder moving a little bit now.

Sam Bauman: 44:03

Yeah, you've given us a lot of advice sprinkled throughout this conversation, which has been awesome. But what other advice do you have for either people thinking about starting a small business or people running a small business?

Ryan Hurley: 44:14

Yeah, I would say my biggest advice is like you should do it. If you want to do it, you should do it. But do the work. Be, be prepared. Come up with a business plan. Challenge yourself. Like, even if you're not going to take on any even like friends and family money, like put the business plan together, see if it makes sense. Challenge yourself. I mean you have so many resources out there right now. Have a conversation with ChatGPT about whether or not your idea is viable and start to put a deck together just so you actually like make sure you really thought about it and, and like actually put in the work to say you would actually see it through. Cause I think the good and the bad is that it's easier now than ever to start a business that's a good thing and a bad thing. The good thing is that made it possible for me to live this journey that I'm on now too. But like I've looked at the numbers. Like we're in the, we're not a big business at all right now, but we are in the top like 5% of businesses on Shopify. So, so that you know, that just goes to show you that like there are a lot of people that are like, oh, I'll try it and like two weeks later you like find a new hobby too. Like if you really want to get the most out of the journey, like find something that you think even if it is, starts out as a side hobby and even if you need to like nurture it over a period of time. But if you want to make it into your full time thing, like actually figure out what that would take. And there's nothing wrong with having a side hobby too. I like actually think that's great if people just want to do that and something that they enjoy. Like entrepreneurship can be a hobby or just, you know, selling something on the side. Could be, could be great. Too. But I would say. I would say do. I'm such a proponent of it to the point where, like, I'm really looking forward to my son, who's only a year and a half. Like, I'm looking forward to instilling in him the idea of lemonade stand. Yeah, yeah. Like, we're gonna do. We're gonna do all. All the things. Big sales, whatever it is. It's just. It is just so rewarding. So that. That's my number one thing. And then, you know, along that line, too, I guess, like, it kind of goes hand in hand, but. But, like, along with doing the work, like, know your num. Know your numbers as well, too. It's super important to figure out if you can make things work financially, too. I made a lot of assumptions that were bad assumptions out of the gate. I thought we could acquire customers for a lot less than we actually could. I was like, oh, yeah, I know that's the norm, but we're going to better for. Just because I like, said so. Be super honest with yourself about whether you think something can work or not, because at the end of the day, the numbers will dictate whether or not something's going to be a success. What else? Do I have any other advice? Laughing I probably like giving advice too much.

Sam Bauman: 46:55

It's great. It's clear that you've thought a lot about what it means to be a business owner. So. Yeah.

Ryan Hurley: 47:04

Yeah. And I think, you know, I think you said it as well, too. It's just like when. When you're thinking about what it means to be a business owner, like, think about the full package too. It, you know, it isn't just about income. If. If it was like, that would be, you know, that would be a harder comparison to make. I think there's a lot of ways to justify it. Like, Lagoon could get bought down the road, and that could be a great outcome. There could be a scenario where I'm actually able to pay myself a salary of double what I would make in the corporate world down there. That could be a great outcome. But, like, today, I'm making enough money where we're comfortable. But I look at my daily life, I look at, is my wife happy? Am I happy? Is our son happy? Do we like our daily routine? Routine? And is it better than, like, the work I know I would be doing or the meetings I know I would be going into and the stress about somebody else's problems that I know I would be dealing with? And I feel pretty confident in that. The only Thing I, like, would struggle with is the comparison game again. So, you know, that's real. And anybody that, like, is fearful of that or dealing with that, like, know that will be a part of your journey too. But. But, like, run your race. Run your race. And if you can see a path that you, at the end of the day, think will make you happy, for me, it's great. And if you think it could be for you again, I can't recommend it strongly enough.

Sam Bauman: 48:36

Awesome. So what one business would you like to spotlight today that you think is doing good work or has a really awesome story or unique product in the. In the Twin Cities area?

Ryan Hurley: 48:50

You know, just because I shouted him out already, I feel like I have to go back to Groveland Confections, just over in Minnetonka. They're a local chocolate shop. I told you, I told you about how hard cocoa prices are right now. So, I mean, he's. Brian's dealing with his own challenges too, but. But I mean, like, every time I go in there, I leave with, like, way too much chocolate. They do really good work. You know, they're ramping up for a super busy holiday season too. But, you know, he actually, his story is different. He acquired the business, but, you know, he's dealing with hiring employees, seasonal work. Seasonal. Just sales with, you know, you could imagine being in the chocolate business, how volatile that can be as well too. But yeah, we definitely highlight. They make some amazing chocolates, have some amazing treats, and just all around really good people working over there too.

Sam Bauman: 49:46

Awesome. Thank you so much and thanks for talking with us today. This has been lovely.

Ryan Hurley: 49:50

Oh, yeah. Thank you guys for coming out. It was, like, super fun. I love being able to share our story and I, again, I do just love talking about entrepreneurship and encouraging more people to take the leap.

Sam Bauman: 50:02

That's great.

Adam Rondeau: 50:03

Thanks so much.

Ryan Hurley: 50:04

Thank you.

Sam Bauman: 50:13

That was Ryan Hurley of Lagoon. You can find lagoon online@lagoonsleep.com and on Instagram lagoonsleep. Ryan talked about running your own race instead of getting caught up in comparison. We're pretty into that philosophy, especially since business owners often feel like they need to be burning themselves out for the sake of growth. If you're building a business that prioritizes balance and leaves space for you as an actual person, we might be your people. Check us out@mellolark.com and send us a message if you want to chat. Thank you so much for listening today. If you've been enjoying the podcast, hop on over to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a glowing review, then follow us on Instagram Ello Lark to get updates of new episodes. See you later.